Posted on 03/30/2012 7:26:44 PM PDT by pops88
I just sent the following to someone involved with animal rescue, and wanted to share with Freepers. It's been a very hard day here :
I found out last night my family has to move overseas in the next 5 days because of my husband's job. I have a highly intelligent, well trained, well behaved, 4 year old German Shepherd. If I can't find a foster or permanent home, he will have to be euthanized. I've worked with him extensively. He's obedient and knows many commands, but he's not been able to be socialized to other people or animals. From the time he was a puppy he was fearful of other people and I was unable change that behavior. As a family pet, he has been wonderful. He was neutered as soon as possible to avoid problems with dominance issues. Some of the commands he knows: sit, stay, lie down, leave it, drop it, take, put (here,) give, find (person/specific toy), back up,wait, shake,kiss, crate, etc.
He is pool safe. He does not enter bedrooms or bathrooms unless on command. He does not get on furniture or eat food that has not been given to him. He will not take food from counters, coffee tables or the garbage. He is housebroken. If his water is empty he will nudge his dish and sit and wait. If a toy is taken away and put up he will not try to take it back. He doesn't beg at the table. When I'm cooking he goes and lies down. He is in good health and not over weight.
He can be a big ham with doe eyes or a head plant on a knee when he wants attention. He's so smart and communicative that I've referred to him as our toddler. He was taught to heel as a puppy, but because of his fear and aggression with strangers and other animals he has not been walked on a leash for several years. He's had to be confined to our home and backyard. My husband is a pilot and was unemployed several times in the last few years because of the economy. It's been a real struggle for us. We didn't have the money to take him to a professional trainer to deal with his socialization issues, and he was too big for me to handle on walks. He would be an absolutely wonderful dog for someone willing to work with him.
I've kept a file on all his vet records and papers (purebred from East German blood lines.) We absolutely hate the thought of having to take him to the Humane Society and be put down when he's such a wonderful dog otherwise, but again, we have to move overseas on extremely short notice and we're all pretty much in shock. I live in Las Vegas and expect to be driving to Los Angeles on Tuesday.
I’ve been reading the thread..Prayers for you and your daughter that all works out for the good..
I am thankful that most of the posts were supportive and helpful..
One jerk can’t spoil all the good will and understanding.
Thank you. The love, goodwill, help and support here has exponentially out weighed the negatives. I’ve been a panicked, blithering idiot. Freepers have been above and beyond with their helpfulness, and I know one Freeper gets credit for keeping me from going off the deep end (you know who you are ;). {{{Hugs}}}
I wouuld have been panicked, too!
Yes..FReepers can be wonderful sources for help, information and prayers.
I know how hard it is to have a difficult situation with a pet as I have a cat ( my college aged son found her) that doesn't get along with any other animals. She is not as extreme as your situation but we've had to make special accommodations to keep her separate from the others or she would attack them.
Life would be easier w/o all this fuss but what are ya gonna do, eh? :)
Sending prayers that things work out for you in the best possible way.
Oops...should have been "no" suggestions to offer.
Hope there will be a good update soon.
No news yet. Still working on it. He’s a pretty happy dog at the moment because mom’s really been spoiling him. He’ll be especially happy at dinner when he gets some left-over people food (pork) which he normally wouldn’t. I run a tight ship ;)
Shannon -
I will respond even though you won’t reply. I am aware of the positive reinforcement/dominance war, and know you are probably pretty set on positive reinforcement. I’d just ask you keep an open mind, in the event you get a case where PR doesn’t work so well.
First, I don’t choke unconscious or cut off air, that was Pops. Personally, I did’t care for the sound of it when I first read about it, nor would it have worked on the two I wrote about, who almost choked themselves unconscious trying to get at each other - it had no effect.
On the shock collar, prior to these dogs, I never disciplined my dogs. I literally had some dogs who wouldn’t sit, wouldn’t down, and they came when they wanted, and I was happy with that. I was a spoiler, and I didn’t like the thought of making the dogs do anything. I wanted my dogs happy above all else, and thought that was how to do it.
I got one dog, like the two, who had already been trained, and he was perfect, in every way. I suspect it was because I got him as an adult, and the new pack effect made him instinctually submissive, but maybe he was special.
The two I got to replace him after he passed were adorable puppies, but they came to think they did what they wanted, and they were a lot different from my other dogs psychologically, as they matured. For the record, I was irresponsible and ignorant, as many warned of the dangers of their breed, but I had gotten a great one, how bad could they be?
The bottom line was, I tried everything to stop the fighting, and my choice became to go the collar route, or get rid of one, which would have left it traumatized. I did the collar, and I am pretty sure they would have said it was the best option, if they could talk.
Correcting eventually became a once every five or six month thing, and only if a fight was becoming likely. I never saw any effect on temperment or fearfulness, but I was clear when they would get corrected, so they were never confused. They realized quickly, don’t fight and come when called, and there would be no shock. As a result, they would consciously relax to avoid the shock. As a bonus, I got them off leash absent any risk of their bolting - something I never knew was so important to a dog.
Some dogs are instinctually designed to be aggressive, and to become more so as they get aggressive. You need to see it to understand it and you won’t in 99% of dogs. You can’t easily condition your desired behavior into them, more than their genes condition them to try to be pack leader, drive away competition, or just compete to the death to see who is more fit to sire the pack’s next litter. Some things are so ingrained in some dogs that you need some extreme conditioning to make it work.
As an example, you can’t walk between two wolves about to fight over a dead elk, break out a bag of treats and a clicker, and end up with two wolves peacfully sharing the carcass. I know I could get two wolves prone to fight to share a carcass with two shock collars though, based on my experiences.
Likewise, could you condition a grown wolf-dog with PR to reliably hang with a rabbit, and not hurt it, even if the rabbit ran away fast? Some things are deeply ingrained, and if you’re going to put a pathway in the amygdala which will block a behavior, you need it to be a strong one which can shut off the pathway in teh amygdala driving the behavior.
Just to make the point, stop by Amazon, google, or anywhere else, and check the reviews for all of their electric collars, especially the extra strong one I cited. they’re filled with people who had dogs they thought were untrainable, and who now can’t help but rave at how happy their dogs are, off leash, and well-behaved. If this is a bad form of training, shouldn’t most (or even some?) of them be from horrified dog owners, who found the collar irreparably traumatized their dogs?
I know if those collars left my dogs shattered wrecks, I would have complained everywhere, warning everyone. Clearly, those who use them find they aren’t that bad. And yes, I shocked myself with them repeatedly before using them on my dogs. It is painful, but if I could take it willingly for loving my dogs, my dogs could take it to prevent themselves from being hurt in a fight.
I’m only saying this to you, in the event you someday come across a dog you can’t condition with positive reinforcement. Don’t write him off, and don’t avoid the collar to help the dog. There is a whole lot that can be worse than the little transient burn of the collar.
I do know those collars saved two of my dogs, when nothing else would have, and they ended up even happier and more well adjusted than the many dogs I spoiled, but kept on-leash before them. Now, I would make sure any dog I got was trained to come and down with them, and wore them always, just so he could go off leash.
Finally, you are right about how Pops shouldn’t be using the shock collar. I hadn’t seen how the dog had been trained to that point when I recommended it. No wonder he freaks, and begs to be locked up when someone new comes to the house.
For the record, I have no relation to the company which makes them, their sale or marketing, nor do I benefit from any sales in any way. I wasn’t pimping for profit, just pointing out to freepers a product which altered two of my pet’s lives for the better, immeasurably.
Peace.
“Finally, you are right about how Pops shouldn’t be using the shock collar. I hadn’t seen how the dog had been trained to that point when I recommended it. No wonder he freaks, and begs to be locked up when someone new comes to the house.”
Excuse me? What are you saying? My dog was pretty much trained by the book. Should he not have developed a fear of other dogs after he was attacked as a puppy after the dog’s owner assured me their dog wouldn’t hurt mine? I actively worked to correct that issue without success. Fear can be an extremely hard thing to overcome. I’ve done psychiatric nursing so don’t tell me otherwise. I’m not going to get into the socialization issue with people because it would take too long to relate the lengths I went to. I spent hours on the Leerburg.com site when my dog was a puppy and my daughter and I watched “It’s Me or the Dog” nightly. I’ve had many dogs I’ve trained in my life time (I’m over 50), I’ve been to obedience classes and worked one-on-one with a professional before. In college, I was a nanny for a man that had a dog from the New Skete monks and I have read their book, along with several other dog training books from highly respected professionals, not just Joe Blow. Please don’t imply I don’t know how to train a dog. I know what my dog needs, but up until just recently I haven’t had the money, and I’m smart enough to know that I’m not a professional and try it. Slamming me is rich after you publicly admitted to spoiling your own dog and creating a behavioral problem. I didn’t create my dog’s temperament, and after so many years working with newborns, I know they all have a discernible personality at birth. So do dogs. If a dog is born with a timid, fearful personality it is a challenge to overcome and many consider a dog like that to have an unsound temperament. I’ve been at least willing to work with my dog as much as possible. And I’d like to reiterate- the dominant dog caller is NOT for training. It’s solely for getting the upper hand in an emergency situation with a dog’s kill instinct in full blown mode.
“No wonder he freaks, and begs to be locked up when someone new comes to the house.”
I trained him that, rather than go nuts at the door wanting to attack, to go into his crate. Now he “begs” because he wants to please me by showing his obedience and “knowing the drill.” His “freaking” is wanting to attack the stranger. As Alpha, I’m the leader of the pack any my dog expects him to protect me. It should not be the other way around if you understand pack dynamics.
“You’re trying to re-home a dog with a “kill instinct” so strong you have to be prepared to choke the air right out of him. Do you not see anything wrong with that?
Could you really live with yourself if he killed someone? If that doesn’t get your attention, what about the thought of a new owner treating him cruelly?
It’s time for some rational thought.”
Well, I’m kind of “damned if I do, damned if I don’t.” I’ve been slammed for even considering euthanasia, and slammed for not. I’m trying really, really hard to make the best of the situation. My vet is well familiar with my dog and would not help, and if that was my only option I wanted to have it done in a loving manner. I’d like to find someone who is as responsible as I have been with my dog. I’m not about to just give him away to anybody. The person has to be fully understanding of the implications and what they have to work with. I’m even willing to pay for professional training to rehabilitate him, because he is otherwise an outstanding pet, but I have to first find someone responsible to take him.
“Your poor dog is “begging” to be get away from stressful situations so he doesn’t get the air choked out of him. You’ve taught him well what’s coming if he reacts; choking to the point of near unconsciousness. Unbelievable.”
You are absolutely clueless. He didn’t get a dominant dog collar until he was 3 years old, and what part of “last resort” don’t you understand? I needed it to be able to take him to the vet safely. Otherwise, I’ve only ever had to use it about twice. For about the third time- IT IS NOT A TRAINING AID! Maybe go to the Leerburg.com site and read about it before making assumptions and slamming me.
“Your poor dog is “begging” to be get away from stressful situations so he doesn’t get the air choked out of him.”
News flash- he was trained to go to his crate by positive reinforcement using treats. I have never been abusive to my dog.
“You’re the one wanting to re-home Kudjo so don’t tell us you’re training has worked. Please, just stop it.”
Shannon, I’ve seen the error of my ways. My vet wouldn’t euthanise my dog when I was afraid to re-home him, and the shelters here are no kill. I guess I’ll just get my 22 and take him out into the desert and dispatch him myself. /sarc
I also have had dogs all my life and have worked with them.
Do the responsible thing and have the dog euthanized and do not rehome it.
read post 105
This dog should be euthanized and not rehomed and reading post 105 is proof that this dog should be euthanized and not rehomed.
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