Posted on 03/26/2012 5:27:56 AM PDT by marktwain
To arrest someone for a crime, the police need probable cause to believe that he committed the crime. But what if it’s clear that the person committed the act (e.g., intentionally killed someone), but it seems likely that he has a good affirmative defense (e.g., self-defense)? My view is that probable cause should be probable cause to believe that the conduct was indeed criminal, and if the self-defense case is strong enough, that negates probable cause to believe that a crime (as opposed to a justifiable homicide) was committed. But when I looked into this several years ago, I saw that the few courts that had discussed the matter were split.
Florida law, though, clearly resolves this: “A law enforcement agency … may not arrest [a] person for using force [in a self-defense situation] unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.”
So in Florida, the police must have probable cause to believe that the defendant wasn’t acting in lawful self-defense in order to arrest the defendant. It’s not enough to say, “we have probable cause to believe that you killed the victim, so we’ll arrest you and then sort out later how strong your self-defense case is.”
I can’t speak with confidence to whether in the Martin/Zimmerman case the police indeed have such probable cause (which, as you may recall, is a not very clearly defined standard that is well below proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and probably somewhat below preponderance of the evidence).
—We know that a 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Martin.—
Actually, no. The dispatcher told Z that they didn’t need him to follow Tray. Huge difference. Most men still would have followed.
Exactly correct!!
Stand your ground, Castle Laws, etc. exist to protect people from THE POLICE, AND PROSECUTORS who have a record of arresting the victim in cases like these.
I find it disturbing that we even need these laws but many states and communities have found them necessary to protect innocent people from unjustified arrest and prosecution. To put it bluntly we as a society are trying to balance out big government police state powers that have spun out of control.
Not to mention that a 911 operator has no legal authority to order anyone to do anything. Zimmerman was under no legal obligation to follow the operator’s suggestion.
I heard it happened around 7pm
I don't see that in the 4 pages of police report that I have (Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf). I did see a report (clickable link to www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2863797/posts?page=149#149; not an official report, and I don't know the origin of it - might be a fabrication, for all I know) where the GF states facts that justify Zimmerman's actions and make Trayvon the aggressor.
It doesn’t matter if Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher told him not to (he is a free citizen and can walk down the street if he so chooses)
It doesn’t matter if Zimmerman asked Martin what he was doing(he is a free citizen and can talk to whomever he so chooses, it’s called free speech)
It doesn’t even matter if Zimmerman started the fight.
All that matters is if at some point during the fight Zimmerman felt that his life was in danger, at that point had the right to use deadly force to save his life (it’s called self defense)
yep battery, the same as you would get for a bar fight. A ticket basically and a small fine.
You are right, the 911 operator has no authority over Zimmerman. But that was wise advice and indeed turned out to be would you not agree? All he saw was Martin acting suspiciously, not even committing a crime. It’s worth calling the cops on, but not worth getting in a confrontation over. I’ll bet he agrees with me about right now.
The flordia stand your ground law does not apply here so what law of defense is he using.
Maybe it took part of that time trying to sneak up on Zimmerman? I would have run back to where I was staying since I'd lost the guy.
Zimmerman had already stated on the phone to the police that he had lost the kid and was heading back to his truck. That is on record from the taped call.
All that you say may in fact be true. The investigation will sort this out. I think that if he did in fact follow him, he is liable for something. I’m no lawyer so I don’t know for sure. All of that is irrelevant though. What is relevant is someone died needlessly and tragically. It may turn out to be just a terrible tragedy where no one is at fault, but someone is still dead. Is that worth possibly following him and putting in motion these tragic events? I don’t think so.
Are you on overtime pay now, or did you just pass the posting account to someone else?
So he admitted he was unlawfully chasing the kid.
Knock of the personal crap.
Even if Zimmerman attacked Martin totally unprovoked (extremely unlikely) then Zimmerman would only be guilty of battery, a minor crime that usually results in a ticket and a small fine.
In regards to a murder charge, all that matters is if at some point during the fight Zimmerman felt that his life was in danger, at that point had the right to use deadly force to save his life (it’s called self defense)
It wasn't. Sanford PD didpatcher logs the xaal from Zimmerman at 12 seconds past 7:11PM. logs off at 15 seconds past 7:15PM
Martin was on his phone to his girl from 7:12 to 7:16, phone call ends just after Zimmerman and Martin meet.
Police arrive in area at 7:17PM. Find Zimmerman and Martin's dead body sometime between then and c.7:20. EMT;s pronounce Martin dead at 7:30PM
Some of us are having a hard time fitting Martin stalking and attacking Zimmerman, a major fight, and the shooting in the space of 1-3 minutes.
Now who's the one changing facts, eh?
BTW, it's also on record, by an eye witness, that Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him with his fists.
The police have already investigated this case and found no reason to charge Zimmerman. The evidence and witness backed up his story.
Nobody ever said this wasn't a tragic event all the way around.
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