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To: Mr Rogers
Not false. It was one of your birther buddies who posted a translation made of French documents for both English and American use, AFTER the Constitution (which your translation was NOT), and it showed the British translation was NBS, and the American one was NBC.

And how is that supposed to help your argument? This was the time of transition from "subjects" to "citizens". The founders wanted to dispense with the old term which implied ownership by the King, and spur usage of the new term which stands separate from Monarchy. Thomas Jefferson himself erased the word "subject" and wrote over it the word "citizen."

At the time you discussed (1781), prior to the US Constitution, NBS was pretty much it.

Well, as long ago as 1776, Thomas Jefferson was inadvertently using the word, but thought better of it. What was that, 5 years earlier?

That, of course, was true of VATTEL as well, writing in the 1750s. Since NBC did not exist at the time Vattel wrote - there being no USA or US citizens, Vattel could have, at best, written about NBS - which would have been, as you admit, ‘sujets naturel’.

Under a King, the term would always have been "sujets naturel", but Vattel was writing about a Free Republic, and the very Premise of his work was the absence of a King.

But Vattel did NOT use the phrase, which defined citizenship in England and the Colonies. A correct translation of Vattel would be, as in the prior translations, “the native, or indigenous”.

Getting rid of the word "subject" was the entire point of getting rid of the King as a form of government. Why would he suggest the existence of a Republic, and then add the concept of subjugation for it's members?

“naturel” and “indigenes” do not translate NBC or NBS.

Nonsense. They are synonyms. What would "naturel" mean if Not "natural born"? Hmmm???

It is like saying that the word "car" cannot be translated as the word "automobile." I have already demonstrated to you how "sujets naturel" translated to "natural born subject" in 1781, so you cannot legitimately argue that "naturel" won't translate to "natural born."

514 posted on 02/09/2012 8:09:32 AM PST by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: DiogenesLamp

“Nonsense. They are synonyms. What would “naturel” mean if Not “natural born”? Hmmm???”

Here is a hint - you can be a NBC delivered by caesarian section.

He defined what he meant by ‘naturel’ - by saying ‘or indigene’. What does indigene mean?

I’ll give another hint - it doesn’t mean the legal term NBC or NBS, used interchangeably by the Founders.


519 posted on 02/09/2012 9:13:52 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: DiogenesLamp
@Vattel’s Influence on the term a Natural Born Citizen
"Please note that the correct title of Vattel's Book I, Chapter 19, section 212, is “Of the citizens and naturals”. It is not “Of citizens and natives” as it was originally translated into English. While other translation errors were corrected in reprints, that 1759 translation error was never corrected in reprints. The error was made by translators in London operating under English law, and was mis-translated in error, or was possibly translated to suit their needs to convey a different meaning to Vattel to the English only reader. In French, as a noun, native is rendered as “originaire” or “indigene”, not as “naturel”. For “naturel” to mean native would need to be used as an adjective. In fact when Vattel defines "natural born citizens" in the second sentence of section 212 after defining general or ordinary citizens in the first sentence, you see that he uses the word "indigenes" for natives along with "Les naturels" in that sentence. He used the word "naturels" to emphasize clearly who he was defining as those who were born in the country of two citizens of the country. Also, when we read Vattel, we must understand that Vattel's use of the word "natives" in 1758 is not to be read with modern day various alternative usages of that word. You must read it in the full context of sentence 2 of section 212 to fully understand what Vattel was defining from natural law, i.e., natural born citizenship of a country. Please see the photograph of the original French for Chapter 19, Section 212, @here in the original French if you have any doubts. Please do not simply look at the title as some have suggested that is all you need to do. Vattel makes it quite clear he is not speaking of natives in this context as someone simply born in a country, but of natural born citizens, those born in the country of two citizens of the country. Our founding Fathers were men of high intellectual abilities, many were conversant in French, the diplomatic language of that time period. Benjamin Franklin had ordered 3 copies of the French Edition of “Le droit des gens,” which the deferred to as the authoritative version as to what Vattel wrote and what Vattel meant and intended to elucidate."
535 posted on 02/09/2012 11:31:51 AM PST by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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