Posted on 11/03/2011 1:43:37 PM PDT by marshmallow
ATLANTA — One August night, two men walked into a popular restaurant attached to this city’s fanciest shopping mall. They sat at the bar, ordered drinks and pondered the menu. Two women stood behind them.
A bartender asked if they would mind offering their seats to the ladies. Yes, they would mind. Very much.
Angry words came next, then a federal court date and a claim for more than $3 million in damages.
The men, a former professional basketball player and a lawyer, also happen to be black. The women are white. The men’s lawyers argued that the Tavern at Phipps used a policy wrapped in chivalry as a cloak for discriminatory racial practices.
After a week’s worth of testimony in September, a jury decided in favor of the bar.
Certainly, the owners conceded, filling the bar with women offers an economic advantage because it attracts more men. But in the South, they said, giving up a seat to a lady is also part of a culture of civility.
At least, it used to be. The Tavern at Phipps case, and a growing portfolio of examples of personal and political behavior that belies a traditional code of gentility, have scholars of Southern culture and Southerners themselves wondering if civility in the South is dead, or at least wounded.
“Manners are one of many things that are central to a Southerner’s identity, but they are not primary anymore. Things have eroded,” said Charles Reagan Wilson, a professor of history and Southern culture at the University of Mississippi.
To be sure, strict rules regarding courtesy and deference to others have historically been used as a way to enforce a social order in which women and blacks were considered less than full citizens.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Oh you are so right about talking to strange children in public. I still do it sometimes (I’m female). I was a teacher and I just can’t help it. But children are clearly now taught that strangers are all evil and want to kill them or worse. (or they are hellions I don’t care to talk to anyway except to say, “Where are your parents, go tell them to put you on a leash!”). I do often go up to parents at restaurants, when their children have been particularly well behaved, and tell them how delightful their kids were. I think people need to hear it.
LOL yes, you’re right. When we go up to about Vero Beach it’s so much nicer. But we don’t out of here often enough. The worst thing is, living around this makes you start to become more like them. I don’t notice it (by comparison I’m still a sweetie pie, I swear it!) but when I go back I’m floored by the niceness, so I know I’ve become less nice. I even honk at people when I drive now. :(
I live in northwest Florida, “NICEVILLE,” and I have seen more rude drivers here than anywhere else I drive. I generally have to work in Utah a couple of times/year and never see as many rude drivers as here in Niceville.
I live in northwest Florida, “NICEVILLE,” and I have seen more rude drivers here than anywhere else I drive. I generally have to work in Utah a couple of times/year and never see as many rude drivers as here in Niceville.
I am an Oklahoma boy. Once I was in LA for business. I was in a crowded elevator and saw a woman running to catch it before the door closed. I hit the “open door” button. Everyone on the elevator groaned. It occurred to me that LA would be a sucky place to live.
Lots of sucky places to live. I liked OK the few times I’ve been there. Well, at least the people were nice. :)
-- Samuel Adams, letter to James Warren, February 12, 1779"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader."
I was raised differently, apparently. I would have given up my seat to the women. I certainly would not have acted as brutish and uncivil as these two gents (term used extremely loosely).
When you start giving up your place in line at the store or the BMV, let me know.
I've given up my place in line at grocery stores lots of times - to women with fewer items, or to someone who is disabled (especially a vet), or to an elderly customer. I hold open doors for people (male/female - it really doesn't matter to me). I've given up my seat on public transportation. I have not yet given up a place in line at DMV (rather than BMV, whatever that is). But, if I saw someone who I believed needed the spot before me, I wouldn't hesitate. I've let people go ahead of me in various places, without any hesitation whatsoever. I'm not sure what makes others feel they are so special that they are above being decent human-beings to others. This was how I was raised, and I'm not about to stop because someone says doing so is wrong. It's not about the person who I give up my place in line for. It's about being a decent caring person, period.
I have done all those things as well. What I'm saying is that as a 48 year old man, a seated paying customer, I'm not giving up my seat to a healthy 35 year old woman in a restaurant.
Oh, BMV = Bureau of Motor Vehicles. Sorry.
Here it’s the DMV (Department). As I posted, you and I apparently see things differently. I would have no problem with giving up my seat to a woman, and I’m 52.
Some women are like some minorities today...they want special rights. A healthy adult woman is no better than me in a customer service establishment. We're not talking about lifeboats on the Titanic.
To each their own. I was raised differently, and see no reason to change.
You must have an awful lot of time on your hands. You might starve if you keep giving up your seat in a restaurant.
I do not like being addressed as "Honey" or "Sweetie" by the check out at Kroger. (Just one does it and I avoid her line when I see her). But, I do not mind it at all at the Waffle House. What is up with that?
Re-read the story. They were sitting at the bar, not at a table in the main part of the restaurant. If they were seated at a table I would see this differently. But, that’s me. When I take a seat at the bar, order a drink, and peruse the menu, it’s on a temporary basis while awaiting my table. The article doesn’t get that deep into detail, but one could assume these two “gentlemen” were doing that very same thing. Standing while awaiting a table is not a problem. I’ve done that many times. No, I would NOT give up my table after being seated - that is, unless it was for a wounded veteran.
I was raised to be polite, not to be a doormat.
I think it is all context.
Good gosh. I would never, ever address someone as “Honey” or “Sweetie” unless it was my spouse or someone very close to me.
I work in the medical field, and have seen professionals address patients in this manner, and it makes my blood boil. It is unprofessional. (Note: I don’t see it as much these days if ever, since that kind of thing is now officially frowned upon, and that is good in my opinion)
I will say that if a little old lady at the cash register refers to me as “Honey” or “Sweetie”, I can live with that. I give leeway to elderly people, they have lived long enough, and I will defer to them in a good-natured way. But I would never, EVER refer to an adult that way, or even a child.
You never know how people are going to react, though. I was once in a store and when the clerk was handing back my change, he mumbled somethng and I said "Excuse me?" (Which is what some of us say when we can't hear: in my case, frequently.) The clerk flinched and said with a hint of defiance, "I've got to open another pack of quarters, EXCU-U-U-USE MEEEE-E!!" :o/
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