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I don't think prior to 911 that folks would have remained in their seats either had they known it was a suicide flight.

Prior to 9-11 the point was to HOLD hostages as a rule...there were no hostages on 9-11

I grew up in a time when no cop woulda sat around outside a kill zone..especially with kids being slaughtered waiting for armor..no way.

Training does not excuse that.

Cops..God love them..have gotten more militarized, more “separate”, bigger an better and more sophisticated weapons

and less balls or heart...(with exceptions)...training or not

look at Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde and so forth..oddly enough I had this discussion with my older two lads today...those cops...locals...and highway patrol and deputies actually engaged fire at great risk with desperate men much better armed with BARS and Thompsons and semi auto pistols while they mostly had revolvers, lever action centerfire rifles and shotguns

look back even much closer...West Hollywood bank robbers...talk about brazen...but the cops fought back..engaged...took huge risks to save fellow officers and civilians caught in a serious urban gun battle to rival Chechnya or Bosnia

the Columbine guys...even after the battle wagons arrived sat on their hands...a bit afraid to enter a building where kids were known to be killing kids fearing explosives and armed nutbags...well hell...if you can't handle that then be a librarian

training...whatever...no excuse..it's the culture

never when I grew up would cops do that...they would hang their head in shame for that crap...not ask for bigger budgets or in this case likely PSTD time off ...

I'd rather have 20 good old fashioned Mississippi Highway Patrol or Texas Rangers circa 1955 with sidearms than a panel truck full of steroid addled guys in black gear all strapped down with crap I can't get without a transfer stamp plotting strategy like they think they are SEAL TEAM SIX

speaking of which ...does anyone think serious engagement forces like SEALs or any other unit likely to see action would just stand around waiting for more bigger better while the Taliban was across the wire cutting their buddies balls off and they could hear his screams?

I doubt it...even if they knew they would take casualties

We got too much damn SWAT or SWAT wannbes...and they ain't SEALs or Green Beanies or Force Recon whatever...no matter how much they suit up

“””I don’t think prior to 911 that folks would have remained in their seats either had they known it was a suicide flight.
Prior to 9-11 the point was to HOLD hostages as a rule...there were no hostages on 9-11

I grew up in a time when no cop woulda sat around outside a kill zone..especially with kids being slaughtered waiting for armor..no way.

Training does not excuse that.”””

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You just excused it with your own statement. Prior to Columbine that was what the cops trained to do. One of the officers engaged one of the two kids in a doorway and the kids went inside. At that point it was a barricaded gunman and they followed their training.

Do you honestly think the police would have sat around had they known what was going on in the school? If that is the case you have such a low opinion of police there is not much use in debating your posts.

During the Revolutionary war and wars prior to that soldiers stood in the open field with no effort at concealment or cover. It looks positively stupid today but why did they do that back then? Training. You fight like you train.

I will use your own words above but change 9/11 to Columbine. “Prior to Columbine the point was to HOLD hostages..... there were no hostages at Columbine.”

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You go on to say “””Cops..God love them..have gotten more militarized, more “separate”, bigger an better and more sophisticated weapons

and less balls or heart...(with exceptions)...training or not”””

Then you say - “””look back even much closer...West Hollywood bank robbers...talk about brazen...but the cops fought back..engaged...took huge risks to save fellow officers and civilians caught in a serious urban gun battle to rival Chechnya or Bosnia”””

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So do the cops have balls or not? Which is it? You decry the “militarization” of the cops and point to the very incident (North Hollywood Shootout) which led to the sweeping change in law enforcement to give patrol officers long guns so that another North Hollywood Shootout would not occur. One patrol rifle would have ended that but the cops did not have them because politicians did not think they fit the image of “community policing”.

Community policing (kinder and gentler) was the buzzword of the day back then. Just like your example that I did not quote of Bonnie and Clyde the cops still engaged despite being outgunned. They still ran to gunfire did’nt they?

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The rest of your post above reeked of “armchair warrior syndrome” who does not like the cops. Cops are human just like anyone else and I know some really good ones who quit because they had seen enough ugly stuff to last a lifetime. I knew a few who could not handle it, did not ask for help, and tragically ended their own lives. I have known plenty who were not good examples of what a cop should be. I have seen plenty of things that will haunt me for the rest of my life. I guess in your eyes that makes me weak but I still get dressed every day and run to gunfire thinking of my own small children at home.

I absolutely think SWAT is overused and there are many reasons for it including politics. Usually the SWAT guys are in charge of department tactics and training and being SWAT guys they think SWAT is the answer for everything. No arguments from me there and I don’t always agree with it. I am a fan of waiting outside a house with a few officers and arresting or detaining a bad guy outside the house before serving a search warrant with little kids present. I always feel bad for little kids who are terrified when SWAT comes in because their sperm donor was a jackwagon.

However, you criticize SWAT for training like the SEAL’s and other “high speed - low drag” small combat units? Seems like the SEAL’s would be a better unit to emulate than Andy and Barney Fife if you are going to storm a location with an armed bad guy inside.

I know guys who are wearing badges that were in their prior lives active-duty SF, Rangers, Infantry, Force Recon, and believe it or not one guy was SAS before immigrating to the U.S. with his wife. I wore crossed rifles with some of the other fancy adornment.

There are many problems in law enforcement today and many bad cops. It can be a really crappy job and it is possibly the most second-guessed and monday morning quarterbacked occupation there is. Joe Public, Judges, attorneys, reporters, and even other cops all armed with more information than the officer had provide all kinds of opinions of “woulda, shoulda, and coulda”.

I don’t know the heart of every man and woman wearing a badge. Only God knows. I do know that I have been blessed to serve with many who I would have happily sat in a foxhole with and I knew if I died on that day they would continue to take care of my family. The comraderie in many ways is second to none.

I know that one of the Sergeants who was at Columbine goes around putting on some excellent training. Even years later, you can hear the regret in his voice. I respect the fact that he understands what went wrong, his own part in it, and he stands before strangers to help prevent it from happening again. They have to live with that. You and I can just fire and forget about it on a web forum.

There are many laws that suck on the books today. There are many departments that are not being run with the right priorities. There are also many good men and women who are doing the best they can to enforce the law with common sense and decency. If you don’t like the laws blame the politicians. If you feel like your department(s) are misguided work to change it at the local level.

Just my .02 and you can dismiss it with a simple mouse click if you got this far. Regardless, bless you and yours and best of luck to you.

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