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To: RnMomof7

A confused person is someone who is:

lazy Catholic

then a
born-again Catholic

then a
Full Gospel Tabernacle sect

then a
Nazarene sect

then a
Calvinist sect

then a
Presbyterian sect

then a
what-ever-happens-to-tickle-the-ears-next-sect


136 posted on 04/28/2011 2:04:33 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: Notwithstanding; RnMomof7; OLD REGGIE; smvoice; metmom; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; ...
You infer unity as a basis for supposing the Rome is the one true “sect of the Nazarenes”, (Acts 24:5), but actually, while differences and divisions exist among those who contend for the classic Protestant doctrine of the supremacy and sufficiency (formal and material) of Scripture, yet Roman Catholics evidence they are no stranger to confusion and allowance for disagreement, and overall testify of more disparity than evangelicals on moral issues and core doctrines. And yet the more authority they give to the Scriptures, and the more literal they view it (like evangelicals, versus the majority of Roman Catholic scholarship), then then the more conservative they are.

While Catholics greatly disagree with each other, their claimed superior doctrinal unity is based upon a required implicit assent to an assuredly Infallible Magisterium (IM), which has infallibly declared itself to be infallible (in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and content-based) formula), which is the very means used by cults (which deviate from certain core truths evangelicals contend for), versus the Biblical means of “manifestation of the truth.” (2Cor. 4:2) Nor can Rome cannot boast of a greater unity than any individual group may have based upon “sola ecclesia,” while it may be argued that the transdemonational unity of the Spirit among the evangelicals is superior in quality than that of Roman Catholicism, as it does not depend upon implicit assent to an IM.

The fact that disagreement among Catholics may not be as manifest as it might be if Catholics were more committed to doctrine - rather than evidencing that modern Rome allows and effectually fosters laxity in this area (much to the chagrin of Traditional Catholics) - does not negate the fact that beneath their oft-repeated profession of certainty is much real or potential uncertainty and disagreement.*

Even though Catholics have an IM, yet they are confused over how many times Rome has spoken infallibly (and which also have to some degree of interpretation), from 3 to potentially hundreds or more. And which is necessary to ascertain in order to yield the required assent of faith.

Moreover, as these declarations do not necessarily extend to her argumentation or reasons behind them, Catholics can be confused as to where the infallibility begins or ends.

Catholics also may not know, with the certainty of faith, whether they have received a true sacrament.

In addition, some varying degrees of dissent are allowed for teachings of the non-infallible magisteriums, which rarely issues infallible pronouncements, and is where much (or most according to Sungenis) of what Catholics believe and practice comes from, and this degree of dissent and where, is variously interpreted.

Catholic are also commanded not to interpret Scripture contrary to theunanimous consent” of the Fathers, but this “unanimous consent of the Fathers is itself interpreted to mean something quite different than unanimous.

In addition, as very very little of the Bible has been infallibly defined, and clarity is lacking in many areas, thus the Catholic has great liberty in interpreting Scripture, resulting in varying interpretations, even as Rome's scholarship exhibits the same. Looking to the official Roman Catholic Bible for America for guidance, the Catholic will find a hermeneutic and interpretations that vary from others, and is quite liberal.

Looking to Vatican Two, Catholics find confusion as to its own orthodoxy and degree of authority and thus the assent one must give. Here on FR some Roman Catholics contend that Lumen Gentium does not affirm Protestants can be saved unless they convert before death, and the charge of sedevacantists that Vatican Two seriously deviated from orthodox Roman Catholicism, or is so ambiguous as to allow them to be invoked by both sides, is not without a good deal of substance. Nor is the rejection by the Orthodox of Papal infallibility and Roman purgatory, as being contrary to Tradition.

Where Catholics seem most unified in is confidence in Rome that it will see them through to glory, eventually, no matter how nominal, as long as they do not covert to become conservative evangelicals as multitudes do (far more then the opposite). Yet the basis for Rome's claim of unique supremacy and power is herself, as she has infallibly defined herself thusly, and submission to her is said to be necessary to know truth of a certainty, versus searching the Scripture with the heart of a noble Berean.

Furthermore, while infallibility does not extend to all a pope says or does, but is exercised when conforming Rome's infallibly defined formula, yet much of Rome's guidance and unity is based upon having a visible head. But looking to their leader, Catholics can have a pope who, according to a leading Roman Catholic apologist,

1. Invited pagans to pray to their false gods.

2. Looked the other way while his clerics raped his children, and ordained faggots to say his Masses

3. Shuffled pedophiles and homosexuals from parish to parish, even giving them safe haven at the Vatican.

4. Subjected those Catholic who dare protest to droning quotes from Vatican I and Lumen Gentium about “submission”

5. Watched scantily clad women dance while Mass was being said.

6. Suggested that hell might not exist.
7. Suggested that the Jews still have their Old Covenant

8. Kissed the Koran

9. Made it appear as if God has given man universal salvation by using ambiguous language in official writings

10. Accepted the tenets of evolution.

11. Wrote a catechism that contained theological errors and ambiguities.

12. Changed the canonization laws: marriage laws, capital punishment laws, laws about women’s roles.

13. Went against the tradition by putting women in leadership positions and dispensing with head coverings.

14. Failed to excommunicate heretical bishops and priests who were spouting heresies.

15. Protected Bishop Marcinkus and his entourage of financial hoodlums in the Vatican.

16. Ignored the pleas of a bishop who was merely trying to preserve the tradition (Archbishop Levebre)

17. Exonerated Luther

18. Allowed the Luther‐Catholic Joint Declaration, signed by a high‐ranking Cardinal, to explicitly state that “man is justified by faith alone.”

19. Disobeyed the Fatima request to consecrate Russia. — http://www.catholicintl.com/articles/Response%20to%20John%20Dejak%20of%20The%20Wanderer.pdf http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/04/sungenis-alone.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Just some of the things which Roman Catholics can disagree on to varying degrees,

  1. The infallible or non-infallible nature of multitudes of teachings

  2. Meanings of the above

  3. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Lemun Gentum (status of Prots)

  4. Whether the anathemas of Trent still stand and what they entail

  5. The infallibility of Scripture, and scope of inerrancy claims, and hermeneutical methodology .

  6. What Tradition is

  7. What the Fathers taught

  8. The distinction between contrition and attrition and contritio caritate perfecta.

  9. Whether Tradition is the second of a two-part revelation (known as partim-partim), or if both forms of revelation contain the entirety of God's revealed truth.

  10. Darwinian evolution vs not-Darwinian evolution

  11. Geocentricity or Heliocentricity

  12. Parts of predestination

  13. Purgatorial suffering

  14. Whether one can know they are part of the elect.

  15. Capital punishment.

  16. Whether the church was right in sanctioning torture

  17. Papal infallibility

  18. Whether the Virgin Mary died and then was assumed or whether she was assumed before death

  19. Whether the Pope is subject to Ecumenical Councils

  20. What mode of predestination is right - ie Molinism vs Augustinian

  21. Mass in Latin or in vernacular

  22. Whether Trent closed the canon or not

  23. Infallibility of canonizations

  24. What happens to unbaptized babies

  25. The authority of Vatican Two

  26. The meaning of Lumen Gentium as regards the salvation of those apart from Rome, etc.


261 posted on 04/29/2011 3:59:56 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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