You seem, though, to be chasing some dispensationalist bogeymen or demons. I’m glad to hear that you don’t believe the Old Testament Scripture has been abrogated by the New Testament, and that we agree the New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old Testament (or as you said, ‘the old testament is a source of teaching of the Gospel of Grace…’). I asked the question because the only previous message you sent to me was your Post 42, which consisted of 2 lines, 3 sentences:
News Flash
The united States is not Old Testament Israel. Everything you just said above [Post 30] is blasphemy.
Since your original post was not exactly expansive, and most of what I quoted in Post 30 was from the Old Testament – I had to ask the question. I honestly did not know where you were coming from – other than you had strong objections (and aversion) to what I had written.
I don’t believe that I fall into the ‘dispensationalist’ camp. I don’t know exactly what they believe – nor is it high my list of things to learn. I know people in the past have claimed that Great Britain was the “new Israel”. And later, others have claimed the United States as such. That’s nonsense.
And although I’ve heard of Hal Lindsey (he’s the writer of the ‘Left Behind’ books – right?) and John Hagee – there’s nothing they’ve written, or said, that really interest me (I believe I ran across a John Hagee sermon when I was on vacation – several years ago - and had access to cable – but there wasn’t anything profound that I remember. Just that I’ve heard his name before). But what dispensationalists are, or believe, I don’t really know, nor care. If they can back up their beliefs with Scripture – then great. If not, they just join the line of hundreds of other folks with their appeals to itching ears.
But if I fall into your definition of a Dispensationalist – so be it.
We obviously disagree in the need and power of prayer. You call it “manipulation” (and thanks for explaining what you considered to be blasphemous in my Post 30). Now I acknowledge (and am thankful) that God may overrule our prayers to bring out HIS purpose. And since HIS purpose is right and good – that is good. But was Jeremiah wrong to weep for his nation? Is it wrong to pray for repentance and revival in one’s country? I don’t know why God works through prayer – given HE is Almighty and All Sovereign – but HE tells us HE does, and HE tells us to pray. And God be Praised - I'll happily take advantage of that gift.
And was it blasphemous to note that: Daniel 4:17b …that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men? And you also referenced Romans 13:4 (which I don’t consider to be blasphemy) that our ‘ministers’ are ministers of God. HE sets them up. We may get bad ones, we may get good ones. We certainly should keep them in our prayers – either to give us better ones, or to convert the ones in place, or to allow us peace. But certainly with the understanding that ‘not as I will, but as God wills…’
God alone knows the end from the beginning, and if we need to experience temporal suffering in this world – then it is all to the Glory of God.
Now I acknowledge that I did, and often do err, when I speak about prayer for our Nation. I firmly believe we should do so, but I acknowledge the fact that there is no such thing as a “Christian Nation”, and there never has been one. God saves a remnant (Romans 9-11). That was true in ancient Israel, it is also true today. We should have a closer kinship and bond with Christians in China, Iran, and any corner of the world – than with Christ rejecters in our own country.
But that said – Prayer is a gift, and I’ll pray.
Your vehemence against II Chronicles 7:14, seems to deprive you of a wonderful blessing of Scripture. You shouldn’t let dispensationalist bogeymen cause you to toss it into the trash heap:
2 Chronicles 7:13-14 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
What a wonderful model of prayer.
“The called people of God”, humbly seeking the LORD (Matthew 5:3-4 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted), and praying (Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you…), and seeking HIS face (which we can only see through Jesus Christ our LORD: John 14:9c … he that hath seen me hath seen the Father…; 2 Corinthians 4:6b …to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ); and turn from our wicked ways (‘Repent ye therefore, and be converted’). And we get the wonderful blessing of God hearing us (John 9:31a Now we know that God heareth not sinners” … yet HE heareth us - through Jesus Christ our LORD), forgiving us (again, through the mighty work of our LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ), and healing our land (however HE wills to do it).
And then with the response to heart broken repentance and prayer – we have the additional blessing in:
2 Chronicles 7:15-16 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
A wonderful corollary are a couple of passages in I Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Now I got carried away in my response – it was intended to be brief… Intentions don’t always pan out. Anyways, thanks again for your clarification – and God Bless.
Your vehemence against II Chronicles 7:14, seems to deprive you of a wonderful blessing of Scripture. You shouldn’t let dispensationalist bogeymen cause you to toss it into the trash heap:
I am supposed to be blessed by embracing bad theology? This is the heart of my objection to your proposition.
First of all, OT Israel, was a chosen people in so far as God's promises of an inheritance to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 26:3;Lk 1:72 among many others). There are quite a number of remarkable differences between the united States and Israel outside of the fact the latter was a chosen race and the united States is one of many gentile nations. Israel had a much different government where they were governed by prophets and judges of God, and later, respecting the people's demand to "be like the other nations and have a king" (1 Sa 8:5) for God to give them Saul and later David. What possible point in common can you find in that paradigm when compared to an alleged Constitutional Republic?
Going into Covenant Theology, there are insurmountable differences between the united States and OT Israel in terms of the Land Covenant. In the 2 Chr Passage, "heal the land" actually means something in terms of the Covenant made with Abraham. It is impossible for you to find any analog of that in the united States - we have had been under no land covenant with God, there have been no promises made to Westerners who colonized North America by God, and thus God is not obligated to respect a land covenant with a people where no covenant was ever made.
It may serve you well to reacquaint yourself with Joshua 24 to see the incredible difference between the two nations and what would become the foundation for the 2 Ch passage.
Most important of all, is your rejection of the idea of citizenship in the heavenly Kingdom. For the Church of Jesus Christ (not the LDS) is also a chosen "holy" nation (1 Pe 2:9) and we are ambassadors of His kingdom (2 Co 5:20) to this world. We are not to love this world nor the things of this world (1 Jn 2:15; Jas 4:4). The LORD's kingdom is now (Lk 21:31) and is not of this world (Jn 18:36) and through parable he tells us to "Occupy till I come" (Lk 19:13). Therefore we as believers do not have a literal land covenant with God on this earth, our motivation to "humble ourselves" and "pray" should never be about changing secular government but as a response to what was done on the Cross and via the Paraclete's work of sanctification.
Then combining the Covenant teaching with the Land as a Type in the Old Testament we see that it stands for the "pilgrimage of faith" where the "better country" is the "heavenly one".
Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
So here in Hebrews the idea of "land" again points to our heavenly kingdom, not some cursed soil found in North American. I really don't know how to make it any plainer that the 2 Chr passage has absolutely nothing to do with the united States or secular government.
I also reject the idea that bad government is not God's government, for nation's rise and fall in accordance to God's Pleasure, not our convenience and comfort. Returning to the passage I provided from Jeremiah, look closer at 25:9 at how our LORD looks upon Nebuchadnezzar, one of the most ruthless and powerful leaders in all of human history.
Jer 25:9Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.
Again confirmed in Jer 27:6-7 and Dan 5:18-21. Isa 45:1-3 we read that God installed Cyrus, in 10:5-6 God puts in power the Assyrian King (whom God later destroys because that King didn't acknowledge that his power came from God) In Romans we read that Pharaoh was raised up by God for His Purpose to demonstrate God's power and might. (9:17). In Acts 17:26 we see that God sets up nations, kings, and defines boundaries of the nations according to a preappointed time. This is absolutely important to understand because God works according to His own time schedule and His own Purpose, not based on some critical mass of people in North American gathering together in a prayer circle.
As for tying this all together, if we were to stipulate that this generation is the one that will see the Parousia, then the irredeemable fall of the united States is certain. Let me [wildly] speculate here from a theologically harmonious standpoint. In the Olivet Discourse we are told that the world would be in an age of relative prosperity at the Parousia. Glenn Beck not withstanding, it is pretty obvious that the world is heading straight into a thousand years of Darkness and there appears to be no way out. Given that pessimistic view, one could argue along the lines of a theory of upper limits, that we are quickly approaching that time when a prosperous world similar to what we enjoy today will within a few years be lost for another millennium.
Given that as a template, the united States could be argued to have served the sole purpose of bringing about the economic and cultural conditions predicating our LORD's return and the Last Day. That would explain why the united States has been a historical anomaly, never seen before in human history, and never to be seen again since its brief lifespan was to give us the last cycle of global evangelism, and promote peace and prosperity to a world that never before knew it. Contrary to the FUD spread by the Dispensationalists, this generation is unique of all generations in that it has not known plague, famine, poverty and war on a global basis.
Since the Peace and Prosperity from the united States is unique, and since it quite well set up the conditions described by our LORD characterizing the culture and environment of His return, go re-visit your interpretation/suggestion and see how that play out.
Lets say our LORD doesn't return in this generation and we share with billions of other people the evil, wickedness, lawlessness and despair that has characterized mankind since the Garden - will your joy be forevermore vanquished? Because that is what you are setting yourself up for in expecting a Land covenant with OT Israel to be transferable to the united states today.