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To: papertyger

“Do you really think that mangling my analogy makes your proposition any less absurd?”

I didn’t mangle anything. If $5 is the price, then $5 is sufficient. If the scriptures can fully equip you for every good work and salvation, then they are sufficient. You don’t need more.

“If that were true, show me the verse that explains the Trinity, and need to believe in it even if one does not understand it.”

Jesus never says, “Repent, and believe the Trinity!”

Nor does Peter.

The Trinity is a part of Systematic Theology - an attempt to put our knowledge of God into neat categories. That doesn’t make it an error, but neither is a full understanding of it required for salvation, or to live a holy life.

“Then you should have no problem citing it as a doctrine agreed upon by the Church fathers instead of reading it into anecdotes.”

There you go - relying on the doctrinal teachings of man instead of looking to the example of Jesus and the Apostles.

“Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” - 2 John

The teaching of Christ by the Apostles is sufficient. No one needs to run ahead and add more. They should be content to abide in the teaching of Christ by the Apostles. If not, “Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist”.

Indeed, as Paul said, “Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.” - Acts 20

He declared to them “THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD”. If Paul had proclaimed the whole counsel of God, then there was nothing left to be discovered and revealed: “Finally scrutinizing with fresh care the deposit of revelation, they there discovered the pious opinion, hitherto concealed, as far as they were concerned in the more general formula, and, not satisfied to hold it as true, they declared it revealed.”

The Apostles revealed the whole counsel of God, and warned us against running on ahead of it. Of course, that is just scripture...the breath of God.


47 posted on 12/21/2010 2:11:37 PM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: Mr Rogers

[papertyger]
“If that were true, show me the verse that explains the Trinity, and need to believe in it even if one does not understand it.”

[Mr Rogers]
Jesus never says, “Repent, and believe the Trinity!” Nor does Peter.

Oh, come, now! Don’t you realize that you’ve dodged the main point altogether? Your original claim about “transubstantiation not being used as a word” to describe the Eucharist, per se, in early centuries, was being addressed, here: not anything else. This was one of the sillier non-sequiturs you’ve used, to date.

The Trinity is a part of Systematic Theology - an attempt to put our knowledge of God into neat categories.

The Blessed Trinity is an unalterable truth of our Faith, and our salvation depends on it, friend. The doctrine of the Blessed Trinity claims that God the Father is God, God the Son (i.e. Jesus Christ) is God, and God the Holy Spirit is God; but that they are not the same Person. If you deny the Trinity, you deny all of salvation history. If Jesus is not God, for example, then His sacrifice on the cross cannot save us. No... you can’t simply shove the “heavy listing” of theology onto others, while shoving it into the attic when it becomes inconvenient, simply to make a populist show of your case!

That doesn’t make it an error, but neither is a full understanding of it required for salvation, or to live a holy life.

That’s almost painfully vague... and it applies to almost everything you hold dear.

1) Do you, for example, need to understand the necessity of Baptism, in order to be saved? St. Peter says that it is Baptism that saves us (1 Peter 3:21), and Jesus Himself says that we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven without it (John 3:5), so I think I’m safe in calling it important. For instance: would it make a difference if you (personally) are baptized, or not?

2) Do you, for example, need to eat the Flesh and drink the Blood of Our Saviour, Jesus Christ, in order to have life within you? (cf. John 6:53) Or doesn’t the “exact definition” matter? (I would think that it would, frankly; if Protestants are wrong about Jesus meaning “acceptance of His Word”, and not a true consumption of the Holy Eucharist, it would seem to make a difference, yes?)


50 posted on 12/21/2010 2:41:17 PM PST by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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