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To: Finny
The photos and the whole spiel are deliberately misleading

It appears your accusation is based solely on the investigators conclusions differing from your own.

the one from Hawaii to Phoenix, exists, but as soon as it was discovered that the underbelly of that plane was dark blue, that theory disappeared

Show the sequence of cause and effect by examples please.
My recollection is that as further data points became available
it became less likely that AWE808 was the culprit
and the search for a better fit to the data led to UPS902.
Which it turns out fits the data remarkably well.

but it has a whole 'nother flaw -- it's a flight heading into Ontario airport, which is only 40 miles beyond LAX. Ooops

Actually I took it as further evidence for the contrail hypothesis
as it solved a nagging problem I had with the Phoenix flight.
AWE808 overflew at constant altitude of 37000' and yet the contrail 'disappeared'. Why?
The UPS plane on the other hand began its approach descent into Ontario...
the contrails no longer formed when the plane left high altitude.

On the other hand, you refuse to take the word of, or you assume gross incompetence on the part of, a local professional airborne camerman with more than a decade of experience

LOL You bet I do!
One of my avocations has given me ample reason to question media reporting.
The CBS employee who stated the contrail "lit up the sky",
the CBS employee, who ipso facto was speaking without embellishment,
after all what possible motivation could he have for sexing up his report.
The US military on the other hand is obviously lying and covering up the truth.

That's what your opinion is based on: trust of an unproven, unvetted source of internet consipracy-disprover geeks, over trust of a) military officials b) Janes' missile expert c) many dozens of your fellow FReepers with a considerable wealth of actual on-site first-hand witness experiences on which to base their take of the origional video, and d) a pro airborne cameraman who's made a living by knowing what he's doing and what he's looking at in a very competitive market.

No my opinion is based on rudimentary knowledge of geography, physics, perspective and optics,
enhanced by the willingness to keep an open mind while doing some investigative work of my own,
and reinforced by a plethora of other images of similar occurrences..all being contrails.
Appeals to authority and denigrating those positing solutions differing from your own doesn't sway me.

You accuse me of not trusting military officials yet the military says there was no missile...
it appears that you're the one not trusting military officials.

A fellow FReeper's shared knowledge and opinion is valued
but not taken as final proof of anything...
if it were, then the FReeper who reported seeing this with his own eyes
and declaring it a plane would have settled the matter to your satisfaction.

May I suggest examining two of your premises...
Your interpetation of the visual data as indicating...
the object is moving from east to the west
and that the object is increasing in altitude.

Things are not always as they appear and the simpliest answer is often the correct one...

......................

Cheers

858 posted on 11/15/2010 3:29:44 PM PST by kanawa (Obama - "The only people who don't want to disclose the truth are people with something to hide.")
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To: kanawa
Well, in this case, your first impression was the correct one.

Trusting official military sources is one thing, and they're the ones saying it's an airliner. Trusting retired military sources and the authorites at Janes, the foremost publication on missiles and defense tech, is a whole 'nother ballgame.

You've never seen a missile launch live, have you? You've never seen a missile launch live with binoculars as well as viewed overhead airtraffic with them, have you? You don't LIVE UNDER THE FLIGHT PATH of the plane you say was responsible for this, do you? *sigh*

Rudimentary knowledge of scientific principles is not the same as being there. Folks with rudimentary knowledge of scientific principles could once "prove" that it was impossible for bumble bees to fly. Trust your first impression this time, FRiend. It was correct. And I am your FRiend telling you: this is an example of how at risk the BEST of us Americans are (I consider you among "the best," even though you're a Canadian, if I remember right!), and the next time it may be YOU trying to wake up a stubborn populace who rely more on theory than reality, and fall for glib technical explanations based on unverifiable evidence and come conslusions you know are possibly dangerously wrong. THEN you may look back and think, "Hmmmm ... deja vu. Now I'm in the place where Finny once was. And nobody will believe me even when I'm backed by incredibly qualified experts. Wow -- this is scary."

And it is. Just tuck it away in your mind for future reference, because it WILL happen again in some other form.

863 posted on 11/15/2010 3:57:38 PM PST by Finny ("Raise hell. Vote smart." -- Ted Nugent)
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To: kanawa
Which it turns out fits the data remarkably well.

A flight that on its closet approach to Long Beach is 35 miles due south at an altitude of 30,000 feet. Heck, you would need a telescope to zoom into the Casino at Catalina at that distance. And that is at sea level. Yet we are to believe it just happened to be captured fairly large and fairly clear on a camera pointed and focused at its contrail on the horizon ?

953 posted on 11/15/2010 9:57:21 PM PST by justa-hairyape
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To: kanawa
The UPS plane on the other hand began its approach descent into Ontario...the contrails no longer formed when the plane left high altitude.

UPS902 was over Catalina Island on 11/8 at 17:31:33 altitude 30,000 feet. Was 35 miles due south of Long Beach at 17:33:01 altitude 29,000 feet. Was 20 due south of Costa Mesa at 17:34:29 altitude 29,000 feet. No major descent until over land south of Fallbrook. Seems to be its normal daily flight plan. What a ride. Posted a link to the SiteMonitor site where you can verify that yourself.

954 posted on 11/15/2010 10:12:59 PM PST by justa-hairyape
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