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To: Non-Sequitur

The first union of the original 13 colonies was effected by the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. The articles established a confederation of sovereign states in a permanent union. The “permanence” lasted only until 1788, when 11 states withdrew from the confederation and ratified the new Constitution, which became effective on March 4, 1789. The founding fathers recognized the defects in the Articles of Confederation, learned from these defects, and scrapped the articles in favor of the “more perfect union” found in the Constitution.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent. This was not an oversight by any means. Indeed, when New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution, they specifically stated that they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to the United States. Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, “It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw.” A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, “The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State.”

Some important facts should be pointed out.

First, the ratifications of the Constitution by New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island were not given conditionally upon those states being granted the right to secede by the other states. Had that been the case, the ratifications would have been invalid. Ratifications of the Constitution had to be unconditional. Those who voted to ratify the Constitution in New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island simply put into writing a right they thought naturally belonged to their respective states. The states were voluntarily joining the Union, and most people believed the same principles toward self-governance that gave states the right to join the Union also gave states the right to withdraw from the Union.

Second, the ratifications of Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island were unanimously accepted as valid. Those states’ claims to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington who presided over the Constitutional Convention and served as a delegate from Virginia.

Third, many lawyers believe that the acceptance of these three ratifications (New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island) as valid guarantees all states the right to secede. This conclusion is based on the principle that whatever rights are held by some states must be held by all states. [Exceptional rights have been granted to some states in order to encourage them to join the Union. But those special rights were understood by all states already in the union at the time the states granted special rights were accepted.]

Well into the 19th century, the United States was still viewed by many as an experimental confederation from which states could secede just as they had earlier acceded to it.

It took a bloody war to prove them wrong. LEGALITY did not win out, FORCE did, at the cost of over 620,000 lives.


171 posted on 10/07/2010 12:15:59 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
The “permanence” lasted only until 1788, when 11 states withdrew from the confederation and ratified the new Constitution, which became effective on March 4, 1789. The founding fathers recognized the defects in the Articles of Confederation, learned from these defects, and scrapped the articles in favor of the “more perfect union” found in the Constitution.

To say that states 'withdrew' from the confederation is inaccurate. They were the United State before the Constitution, the United States during the ratification of the Constitution, and the United States afterwards. One nation.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent.

I've never said it did.

Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia.

You have that backwards. Congress did not accept the ratification by the states, the states ratified the Constitution as passed out of the convention. And while Virginia may have said that they were reserving the right to resume power in their ratification document, that same document also contained the statement, "We the said Delegates in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia do by these presents assent to and ratify the Constitution...by the Federal Convention for the Government of the United States hereby announcing to all those whom it may concern that the said Constitution is binding upon the said People according to an authentic Copy hereto annexed..." In other words, Virginia agreed to abide by the Constitution, and if that document did not allow certain actions on the part of the states then those actions were illegal. And the Supreme Court ruled that secession without the consent of the states, as practiced by the Southern states in 1860-61, was not allowed under the Constitution.

Third, many lawyers believe that the acceptance of these three ratifications (New York, Virginia, and Rhode Island) as valid guarantees all states the right to secede.

They would be wrong in believing the right to secede is absolute and unilateral, as the Supreme Court found.

Well into the 19th century, the United States was still viewed by many as an experimental confederation from which states could secede just as they had earlier acceded to it.

Except that with the exception of the original 13 states, none of the states acceded to anything. They did not join the Union or ratify the Constitution. They were allowed to join and agreed to be bound by the Constitution, and only after the other states had agreed to let them in as expressed by a vote in both houses of Congress. There is no reason to believe that leaving should not require the same process.

It took a bloody war to prove them wrong. LEGALITY did not win out, FORCE did, at the cost of over 620,000 lives

But LEGALITY did win out. The Southern acts of unilateral secession were illegal. Their actions constituted a rebellion. A rebellion they lost.

175 posted on 10/07/2010 12:35:26 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Hey mo-joe! Here's another one for your collection.)
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To: SeekAndFind
I see saying that 'many people' believed this or that.

The fact is that 'many people' believed that secession was nonsense including Madison, Daniel Webster, R.E.Lee, Andrew Jackson etc

230 posted on 10/08/2010 2:10:42 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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