At the front of the store as Scott was leaving Mosher touched his elbow. Scott pulled away and reached for his gun. Mosher understandably interpreted that as a threatening move, however I think it's possible that, once again, Scott was checking to make sure his gun was concealed. Scott told Mosher he had a gun. Understandably, Mosher probably interpreted that as a threatening statement. At that point Scott should have waited for instructions as any person in their right mind would do in that circumstance. Scott then lifted his shirt, reached around to unclip his holster and gun. At about that time Mosher became alarmed and quickly yelled out his commands, but Scott continued to move the gun toward Mosher, and Mosher shot him.
20/20 hindsight is irrelevant. I agree that Scott had no intention of shooting Mosher or anyone else, and that he most likely took the initiative to disarm himself. However, he made a series of bad decisions in a dangerous situation that got himself killed. After the inquest, even Erik's dad said that Costco was more to blame than the police. Maybe one day his dad will see that Erik had the most responsibility in his own demise.
Maybe you want to live in a world where a cop can order you to your knees, and you have less than a second to comply or die. I don’t. And neither did the folks who founded our country.
If I made the same mistakes Erik did, I would expect to die. I don't think he would have lived to see 40 with the mixture of drugs he was taking. I think our founding fathers expected us to act like responsible citizens. That's why they gave us the right choose our leaders and to be armed.
CCW holders have more responsibility than others. Scott should not have been carrying his guns that day. He was impaired by drugs. After he knocked over a sign a cashier heard Scott tell his girlfriend that he shouldn't be out in public because of his condition. CCW holders are supposed to keep their weapons concealed. As soon as Costco told him to leave because of it he should have left.
“According to the 911 call, Scott later walked quickly to the front of the store touching his gun the whole way, which understandably was interpreted as threatening.”
Incorrect. There is nothing threatening about someone touching some part of their body. Since the gun was concealed, it was covered - and you cannot draw a covered gun. During this time, on the 911 call, Lierley is downplaying his original hype. Lierley said that Scott did not threaten anyone inside the store; didn’t act violently; and didn’t remove the gun from his waistband (that is from Lierley’s testimony day 2).
No one has claimed Scott was acting in a threatening, hostile or angry manner while leaving the store. He passed Mosher without Mosher knowing he was the suspected armed and dangerous man. Lierley was following behind Scott and talking to the dispatcher on his cell phone. He then told Mosher that Scott was the man they had called about.
“As he got to the front of the store, all that matters is how he behaved once he made contact with the police.”
Disagree. It takes two to tango, and BOTH Scott’s actions and the cops impact what follows. And what follows, from first contact to fatal shot, happens in 5 seconds. At this point, Scott has no reason to believe he has been ID’d to the cops as a drug-taking danger to society.
With 6 seconds to death, Scott isn’t known to the cops as a suspect. During the next 4 seconds, he is ID’d. Mosher touches his arm from behind. Scott pulls his arm free and turns. He reaches for his gun (probably to see if it is still there, a normal reaction for someone carrying who has been touched from behind). Mosher’s gun is already drawn and pointed at Scott’s chest.
Scott raises one arm (a bullet went into his armpit) and pulls out his holstered weapon while saying he has a gun and his girlfriend is shouting at Mosher, “Don’t shoot!”
With 2 seconds to go, Mosher issues a stream of commands, and shoots as he finishes his last word. MOsher testified, ““He refused to comply with those commands, to show his hands, or to get on the ground” - but in two seconds (maybe 0.5 seconds from last word to first shot), Scott could not have complied. It simply isn’t possible.
Until I saw the DA’s time line, I put more emphasis on Scott’s actions. But I cannot get past the 6 seconds from “We don’t see the suspect” to “Bang!”, or the TWO seconds from first word to first shot.
Scott didn’t have time to do much wrong. You cannot pull a gun out with the holster the same way you pull a gun out. In one, you grip the handle of the gun and pull damn fast if you are pulling against a guy whose gun is already pointed at you. In the other, you have to take hold of the entire holster so you can pull the clip free of your pants. He didn’t act like a threat before, and his action was not a threat then.
Mosher shot him without giving him a chance to comply. That is not good police work. That is not standard police training. That is a trigger happy cop pulling a trigger without thinking.
I’d be interested in knowing what gun Mosher used. If a Glock, another scenario is possible. Glocks only require 5 lbs of pressure on the trigger to fire (just a bit more than the 3.5 lbs needed for single action shooting, and far less than the 12+ lbs used in revolvers). If Mosher had his finger of the trigger of a Glock, he may have accidentally pulled the trigger. Adrenaline can do that, which is why I don’t like it when cops carry Glocks.
And once one cops fire, all cops fire. And the cop who screwed up cannot afford to admit he made a mistake (accidental discharge, or negligent discharge as the Army now calls it).
Or maybe Mosher was trigger happy. But if the DA’s time line is correct, Scott didn’t have much time to change from a guy exiting the store to an armed and dangerous threat. Not in under 6 seconds.
Scott was not a blameless human. But if I’d been exiting Costco in that situation, I’d have died too. And I’m not dangerous, and I don’t deserve to die for carrying a concealed weapon. Not even if my shirt pulls up for a moment and someone sees it.
Also - based on what happened to Scott, my plan if a cop stops me while I’m carrying is to raise my hands. Make them put all the bullets into my armpits, so my family can at least live their lives in comfort after I’m shot.
The CCW class I took last June discussed being stopped by cops, but their advice was to try not to scare the cop. Neither instructor, both ex-cops, could say how to be certain of that. One said he had been badly scared by a cop during a traffic stop. Nothing in the class covered the “right” way to disarm or react.
the rest of it appears to be the results of your own imagination, as it doesnt jive with the majority of witnesses from inside or outside the store, the partial 911 call, or the other partial radio traffic...
now tell me, why in the hell was a chopper, swat and half of vegas' pd called out for a man legally carrying a firearm in the first place ???
Your first two sentences are a load of pony poop:
When Scott was told to leave by the store by the Costco manager he refused.
The Costco manager, Lopez, told Erik Scott that the Summerlin Costco doesn't allow guns. He never asked Erik Scott to leave.
[Erik Scott] told the manager that he was a Green Beret (which he wasn't).
Costco Loss Prevention supervisor Shai Lierley told the 911 operator about the "Green Beret" comment. Lierley isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer, so I have little doubt that he, being a shining example of the current youth of America, translated a remark that Scott made into "Green Beret". It's an old term that not many people use any more. The most common current term is "Special Forces", which training Erik Scott apparently had received. It's one of the reasons his back was messed up. [Bill Scott: "These old injuries probably were incurred by jumping from C-130 airplanes five times, during Army airborne training."]
The "Green Beret" stuff is hearsay from Lierley - a deadly game of Telephone, as it were.
FWIW - I have a good friend who went through Special Forces training. He washed out on the third & last jump because his knee was beaten up from the previous jumps. Is he Special Forces? Yes and no. He'll never say that he's SF, but the only reason he didn't complete the course was that he couldn't walk.
Your posts are nothing but GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Question: Would Moser have been justified [in such a shooting] if Scott had said “Fuck off asshat!”, turned around, and walked away?
If so, WHY?