Posted on 09/23/2010 5:24:36 AM PDT by marktwain
A 62-year-old woman visiting a local Culver's sees several restaurant patrons with guns on holsters in plain view.
She doesn't know that Wisconsin law allows people to openly carry a firearm, so she notifies authorities, later telling them, "I didn't want to be that one person that saw guns and didn't call and something horrible happens."
Officers arrive to find five armed men at the restaurant near East Towne Mall. In an effort to determine whether there is any threat to public safety, they ask to see the men's identification to make sure they're not felons, who are prohibited from possessing firearms.
To some, the actions by Madison police Saturday evening are reasonable. But members of gun rights organizations say police had no reason to suspect the men were felons. And what happened next, they say, amounted to the illegal search and detention of two of the men when they refused to provide their IDs.
Shawn M. Winrich, 33, of Madison, said he remained silent when police asked if he would provide his ID. Police then told him he was being placed under arrest, and he was handcuffed, disarmed, searched and held until police determined he was not a felon, Winrich said.
Winrich and Frank R. Hannan-Rock, 53, of Racine, were then given municipal citations for obstructing an officer, Madison police spokesman Joel DeSpain said.
But Auric Gold, secretary of Wisconsin Carry, and Mike Stollenwerk, cofounder of OpenCarry.org, said police do not have the right to demand that people identify themselves without probable cause to believe they've committed or are about to commit a crime.
That was not the case with the five Wisconsin Carry members who had simply gotten together to meet and have a meal, Winrich said.
Winrich said he began carrying a gun about four months ago for personal safety and routinely takes it anywhere it is lawfully permitted without incident.
"People know it is legal and it's not something to be concerned about," he said. "Most people really don't have much of a problem with it. They're just kind of curious."
But Winrich, who made an audio recording of the encounter with Madison police, said he carries a recorder in case a problem arises. He said he chose not to give his ID to Madison police because of "the attitude and the overstepping of authority that they had."
Wisconsin Carry won a $10,000 judgement against the city of Racine and its police department after Hannan-Rock was involved in a similar incident there, Gold said.
Openly carrying a firearm is "just like anybody else carrying a carrot down the street, or a cell phone," Stollenwerk said, adding that police in the 43 states that allow some form of open carry have become accustomed to people's right to have a firearm. "This stuff doesn't happen in the rest of the country anymore."
Madison Police North District Capt. Cameron McLay said he believes officers acted appropriately in responding to a report of armed men in a public place in an urban setting, and the caller's concern that something might happen.
McLay said police were going into "a highly ambiguous situation" and had to determine if a crime had been or was about to be committed and preserve public safety, while assuring the rights of all involved. "This is what the officers did in this case to the best of their ability."
But McLay questioned whether obstruction was the correct citation given the circumstances. On Monday, detectives were sent to Culver's for further investigation to determine if another criminal charge, such as disorderly conduct, is warranted, McLay said.
Based on initial police reports, he acknowledged, "There is no indication that a disturbance had taken place."
McLay declined to comment on the legality of searching and detaining Winrich and Hannan-Rock until the police investigation is completed.
What???
How ‘bout ...
“Me compadres call me Blueflag, and this here is lt. col 8k6.”
that won’t work?
My name jose jimenez ....
“His name was Robert Paulsen.”
There you go.
No speak english...
From the description of the incident, NONE of the above happened.
First rule - there is no Fight Club ;-)
And if this is your first time to Fight Club, you HAVE to fight!
Properly sworn complaint or anonymous tip on 911?
Thank you, nice stretch.
One officer could have spoken to the manager, even over the phone, and asked if everything was alright. Then say, “Give us a call if things change.”
That’s a proper investigation.
The only way reasonable suspicion could be met is if one of them was overheard saying something like, “I couldn’t get a concealed-carry permit because of my felony conviction. I’m relegated to carrying out in the open. Hope my parole officer never finds out.”
New information about this case. Here is a link to the posted Examiner article. The article has a link to the audio of the 911 call.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2595369/posts
The caller simply doesn’t know that open carry is legal. She regrets calling, and says that their is no problem.
“their” should be “there” Sorry.
I used to follow Drum and Bugle Corps, and back in the Seventies (even then) the all-male drum corps from Madison, ‘The Madison Scouts’, was widely known as ‘the Madithon Scouths’. In the Eighties, they became openly homosexual.
Like most people who understand liberalism, there is a map, going from East to West...Cambridge, MA, Ithaca, NY, Madison, WI and Berkeley, CA...
This story surprises me not in the least.
It’s called having a chip on your shoulder and asking for a fight.
Just who has that chip?
Just who is being forced to change their perceptions with regard to the true power of the people?
W
Well, we know for sure of one that did.
As for you second question, I don’t even know what you mean. It’s not like I could ever give you a satisfactory answer anyway.
Here is a link to another story about the case.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2595369/posts?page=3
An officer may legitimately believe someone committed a particular crime, even if it happens that the suspected crime was not in fact committed. An officer may pull someone over because the person is driving erratically and the he believes the person is probably driving under the influence. If the person is in fact sober, it's entirely possible no crime was committed (it may be the person's first time behind the wheel outside a driver's ed class) but until the cop discovers otherwise, the particular crime of DUI remains a realistic possibility. What particular crime did the cops have reason to believe was committed?
It's not against the law to be confused or stupid. No fine required or allowed.
2. Fire the 911 operator for not enquiring what the purpose of the call was, exactly what was going on, why the lady is calling 911 and the ultimately why the operator dispatched a car to the scene.
No way in Hell. 911 operators do not have the authority to remotely assess any situation in lieu of sending the appropriate response, whether it be police, fire or ems. In the case of false reports 911 operators hand the call directly to the police who have the power to cite the individual for abuse. What's important to understand here is that the 911 operator ALWAYS hands the call off, always.
3.) Fine the police for not asking who called 911 when they got to the scene and not ticketing her for abusing it’s function. Investigate why the police were harassing certain individuals for no reason.
Again, extreme ignorance. There is no reason to believe that she gave a false statement or abused the system. Feeling threatened because she was ignorant of Wisconsin's open carry law is not a crime, nor does it rise to the occasion of abuse. There is a complete lack of malice on the caller's part. She made a mistake and was scared for nothing.
Too much liability. If the police hadn't shown up, and instead of 5 guys legally carrying, it turned out to be 5 thugs intent on mischief it would be legally damning if they hadn't responded. Keep in mind, that for good reason, assessments aren't done remotely. 911 Always hands off.
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