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To: xzins
As Wagglebee cited: "...and the Word was God."

If Jesus is God then no body saw him and we know that is not the case.

What you are doing is what I emphatically cautioned against!

By using isolated verses like John 1 you end up with a model that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

You assert that John 1 proves that Jesus is God but then totally ignore that God is invisible, etc etc.

Based on the clear and unambiguous verses, Jesus Christ cannot be God and God cannot be Jesus Christ!

With all due respect, your research is not even to the same level of integrity of the man made global warming 'scientists'!

John 1 is a very beautiful section but it doesn't mean what you claim.

Again, in order for Jesus to be God you have to contradict dozens and dozens of clear, unambiguous scriptures and concepts.

Can God be tempted with evil? No. Was Jesus tempted with evil. Yes.

It is really very simple, but it takes years even centuries of indoctrination to get people to accept that when the Bible says that there is one God and that God is one that that really means that there are 3 Gods and/or that God is 3 and not one.

And the best part is....it is all a mystery, right?

Whenever we can't explain the broken logic and contridictory verses we can always claim it a Divine Mystery! Yes!

414 posted on 04/08/2010 7:35:45 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Eagle Eye; P-Marlowe; wagglebee

It sounds like your issues are “invisibility” and “temptation”....is that right?

Abraham ate dinner with the Lord prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Didn’t he?

Temptation: It says that God can’t be tempted with evil? Jesus wasn’t tempted because the temptor came to him. In fact, the point of the story was that He was NOT tempted

Both synonyms and various usages of the same word are common in most languages. That is true of Greek and Hebrew as well.

One usage of “temptation” is “enticed to sin.” God cannot be enticed to sin.

Another usage is “put to the test.”

In Jesus’ case, Satan put Jesus to the test, but Jesus was not enticed.

As I said before: you are not in the tradition of historic Christianity, EE.


416 posted on 04/08/2010 7:50:09 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Eagle Eye; xzins; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
By using isolated verses like John 1 you end up with a model that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

You assert that John 1 proves that Jesus is God but then totally ignore that God is invisible, etc etc.

The first chapter of the Gospel of Saint John is very clear.

Based on the clear and unambiguous verses, Jesus Christ cannot be God and God cannot be Jesus Christ!

And people wonder why the Catholic Church rejects sola scriptura.

With all due respect, your research is not even to the same level of integrity of the man made global warming 'scientists'!

So, you think that two thousand years of orthodox Christian belief has less integrity than a hoax?

Why are you so reluctant to answer the simple question of what denomination you belong to?

417 posted on 04/08/2010 7:53:20 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Eagle Eye; wagglebee; Alamo-Girl; Quix; xzins; P-Marlowe; metmom; hosepipe; stfassisi; kosta50; ...
Based on the clear and unambiguous verses, Jesus Christ cannot be God and God cannot be Jesus Christ!

Which "clear and unambiguous verses" say this?

It seems to me verses in John clearly demonstrate that the Father and the Son are One, "in" one Godhead which also includes the Holy Spirit. There is one divine Substance which expresses as Three Persons.

Since evidently you do not share this view, although you claim to believe in God, possibly you are a deist — in the sense understood by the Founders of our nation. To them — e.g., Franklin, Jefferson — a deist was a person who, though believing in God the Creator, was skeptical of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

I wonder what these verses from John's Gospel would mean to a deist in this sense:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. — John 14:6–11

That they may all be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. — John 17: 21–24

People will read these verses according to their best lights. To me, the "thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee" statement strongly suggests a single, ONE divine substance. Thus, to me, the Holy Trinity does not contradict the Shema, "Hear O Israel! The Lord thy God is One!"

Others will disagree.

But really, Eagle Eye, is this the measure of your reasoning regarding the purported falsity of the Trinity: That God cannot be tempted by evil, but that Jesus Christ was so tempted; therefore, Jesus was not God?

That is certainly an easy test. But is it a truthful one? In particular, it is simply oblivious to the idea that the Son of God was incarnated as a man and so to some extent participates in human nature. Recognition of this would seem to counterindicate the application of simple formulas, such as "God cannot be tempted by evil, but that Jesus Christ was so tempted; therefore, Jesus was not God."

Are we to be satisfied with such simplistic, superficial answers to questions of such enormous importance?

498 posted on 04/09/2010 10:02:08 AM PDT by betty boop (The personal is not the public's business. See: the Ninth Amendment.)
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