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To: OldDeckHand; Fred Nerks; null and void; stockpirate; george76; PhilDragoo; Candor7; rxsid; ...

< Note: this is a long post, but please stick with it ... there's important NEW info & citations within >


This is why amateurs shouldn't cite case law, they invariably get it wrong.

Indeed. You just described the average Obama-supporting After-Birther who wanders through here, quoting from bulletpoint "fact" sheets created by some half-ass Progressive legal assistant ... LOL

one only needs to read this paragraph from Justice Fuller lamenting the very reality created by the majority's opinion...

ROTFLMAO ... so instead of citing CASE law, you're now quoting Dissenting Opinions to attempt to make your point? Now that's funny.

Well if you're playing that game ... Justice Gray laments the very reality created by the Minority opinion (Justice Fuller) ... about 11 paragraphs down in Gray's Majority opinion:

The Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words, either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except insofar as this is done by the affirmative declaration that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.” In this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the Constitution. Minor v. Happersett, 21 Wall. 162; Ex parte Wilson, 114 U.S. 417, 422; Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 624, 625; Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 465. The language of the Constitution, as has been well said, could not be understood without reference to the common law. Kent Com. 336; Bradley, J., in Moore v. United States, 91 U.S. 270, 274. [p655]

In Minor v. Happersett, Chief Justice Waite, when construing, in behalf of the court, the very provision of the Fourteenth Amendment now in question, said: “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.”
So ... FROM WHERE would "Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that" come? Obviously Common Law, although Natural Law (Vattel, Locke, etc) had a very strong influence as well (seeing how France financed a lot of the Revolutionary War and the Colonists had a general disdain for British law).

However, let's delve deeper on the subject of citations used by Justice Gray in US vs. Kim Wong Ark. HINT: Don't hang your hat on A.W. Dicey's "Conflict of Law" (1896 edition) as used in Justice Gray's US v. Kim Wong Ark Opinion (1898).


Obviously you're aware that BAD Supreme Court opinions exist, as you've referenced the Slaughter-House Cases (1873) that "overturned" Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857). Obviously there are many other landmark decisions in the history of the SCOTUS.

The first modern case that pops into my head is the 2008 DC v. Heller SCOTUS Opinion on “to keep and bear arms”, which overturned nearly 70 years of BAD Lower Court Opinions and Local/State laws stemming from the badly-written and incomplete 1939 US v Miller SCOTUS Opinion.

It's a VERY good bet that today's Chief Justice Roberts' SCOTUS Court will eventually "clarify" historically-incorrect sections of Justice Gray's 1898 US v. Kim Wong Ark Opinion and his historical analysis therein.

Here's why:

See, the quote you offered, "It thus clearly appears that by the law of England ... whatever the nationality of his parents, is born within the British dominions, acquires British nationality at birth and is a natural-born British subject." was first published in the unrefined 1896 First Edition of A.W. Dicey's "Conflict of Law."

Justice Gray used the two-year-old First Edition version of Dicey's book in his 1898 US v. Kim Wong Ark analysis. (Gray used other weak references to make his point in his 1898 US v. Ark Opinion, too, like Binney's 1853 "Alienigenae of the United States" ... a pamphlet rejected by Congress, where Binney contradicts himself in 1854, LOL).

However, in Dicey's SECOND Edition of "Conflict of Law" published in 1908 and subsequent editions, you will NOT find that quote from Dicey.

Dicey "corrected" himself later ... perhaps why Dicey’s “Conflict of Laws” has been cited only EIGHT times in ALL of the searchable US Supreme Court Opinions on record.

You'll find that Dicey — after further analysis of Common Law of the latter-18th century — revealed THIS in his 1908 Second Edition of “Conflict of Laws”:

"A child whose father's father (paternal grandfather) was born within the British dominions is a natural-born British subject, even though the child's father and the child himself were not born within the British dominions." (Hint: This would DIRECTLY IMPACT Barack Hussein Obama and his lineage to his British father and British subject, regardless of Obama Jr's birthplace).

By 1932, an older and wiser A. W. Dicey wrote:

“To any critic of Blackstone, as to any student of English law, I unhesitatingly give this advice: Begin your study by reading Blackstone's Commentaries. Keep in mind that the book describes English law as it stood towards the end of the eighteenth century.”



Dicey finds the proverbial acorn with his 1932 observation, as the SCOTUS of yesteryear and today references Blackstone's Commentaries on a very regular basis! This methodology to determine the Framer's Original Intent — by referencing Common Law as it existed at the time of the Framing "towards the end of the eighteenth century" — has been re-affirmed by the SCOTUS and Constitutional experts time and time again.

Again, citing DC v Heller (2008), the SCOTUS must make Opinions as "interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the Constitution."


As attorney and Constitutional expert John W. Guendelsberger — who Barack Obama appointed to the Board of Immigration Appeals (BIA) in August — pointed out in 1992 regarding US v. Wong Kim Ark (169 U.S. at 653):

“In particular, the Court noted the Constitution's requirement that the President be a “natural-born citizen,” a condition whose meaning could be derived only by reference to English common law in existence at the time – see US v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), referencing Minor v. Happersett (1874).


To reiterate: Blackstone has been referenced THOUSANDS of times by the US Supreme Court to define the Framer's Original Intent ... nearly 20 times in DC v Heller alone! Blackstone's Commentaries has stood the test of time; A.W. Dicey's "Conflict of Law" — used by Justice Gray in US v. Ark (1898) — HAS NOT.


So ... what does Blackstone say about British subjects, Allegiance and "service to two masters" (i.e., Dual Citizenship)?

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.



183 posted on 04/01/2010 11:28:15 PM PDT by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: BP2; All
You'll find that Dicey — after further analysis of Common Law of the latter-18th century — revealed THIS in his 1908 Second Edition of “Conflict of Laws”:

"A child whose father's father (paternal grandfather) was born within the British dominions is a natural-born British subject, even though the child's father and the child himself were not born within the British dominions." (Hint: This would DIRECTLY IMPACT Barack Hussein Obama and his lineage to his British father and British subject, regardless of Obama Jr's birthplace).

The British Nationality Act of 1730 [(4 Geo. 2) C A P. XXI.] was the governing nationality law at the time of the Founding Fathers. The lawyers amongst the Founding Fathers, having trained in British Law, would have known this. The Act conferred "natural born subject" status to children born out of the ligeance of the sovreign, as long as their fathers were "natural born subjects". The 1730 Act stated:

" ... That all Children born out of the Ligeance of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain, or which shall hereafter be born out of such Ligeance, whose Fathers were or shall be natural-born Subjects of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain, at the Time of the Birth of such Children respectively, shall and may, by virtue of the said recited Clause in the said Act of the seventh Year of the Reign of her said late Majesty, and of this present Act, be adjudged and taken to be, and all such Children are hereby declared to be natural-born Subjects of the Crown of Great Britain, to all Intents, Constructions and Purposes whatsoever ... "

This provision was further clarified by the British Nationality Act of 1772 [(13 Geo. 3) C A P. XXI.]. This Act extended "natural born subject" status to the children of the children also. The 1772 Act stated:

" ... An Act to extend the Provisions of an Act, made in the Fourth Year of the Reign of His late Majesty King George the Second, intituled, An Act to explain a Clause in an Act made in the Seventh Year of the Reign of Her late Majesty QueenAnne, for naturalizing Foreign Protestants, which relates to the Children of the natural-born Subjects of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain, to the Children of such Children ...

... and therefore that not only the Children of such natural-born Subjects, but their Children also, should continue under the Allegiance of His Majesty, and be intituled to come into this Kingdom, and to bring hither and realize, or otherwise employ, their Capital; but no Provision hath hitherto been made to extend farther than to the Children born out of the Ligeance of His Majesty, whose Fathers were natural-born Subjects of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain ...

... That all Persons born, or who hereafter shall be born, out of the Ligeance of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain, whose Fathers were or shall be, by virtue of a Statute made in the Fourth Year of King George the Second, to explain a Clause in an Act made in the Seventh Year of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Anne, for naturalizing Foreign Protestants, which relates to the natural-born Subjects of the Crown of England, or of Great Britain, intitled to all the Rights and Privileges of natural-born Subjects of the Crown of England or of Great Britain, shall and may be adjudged and taken to be, and are hereby declared and enacted to be, natural-born Subjects of the Crown of Great Britain, to all Intents, Constructions, and Purposes whatsoever, as if he and they had been and were born in this Kingdom ..."

186 posted on 04/02/2010 12:34:13 AM PDT by Lmo56
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To: BP2
Well researched -- Thanks.

The Obamabots consider Wong Kim Ark to be their Constitution and Justice Gray their founding father and 1898 to be the date of the founding of their Obamabot regime. And yet these supposed "case law professionals" who wrap themselves up in their own self-important elitism, can't even understand the words of their own "Constitution".

197 posted on 04/02/2010 6:21:55 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: BP2
"Obviously you're aware that BAD Supreme Court opinions exist, as you've referenced the Slaughter-House Cases (1873) that "overturned" Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857). Obviously there are many other landmark decisions in the history of the SCOTUS. "

Stop right there. Anyone who compares the Ark decision to Dred Scott has broken with reality. You're delusional.

199 posted on 04/02/2010 6:28:20 AM PDT by OldDeckHand
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To: BP2

Great post BP2.


207 posted on 04/02/2010 8:00:25 AM PDT by Electric Graffiti (If the constitutional eligibility of the president is not a "winning issue," then our nation is lost)
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