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To: rustbucket
I asked for evidence of a mob. Your link doesn't mention that any mob formed to attack Moultrie. What Anderson was acting on was his fear that if one came it could easily take over Moultrie.

Read the two sources I cited.

Anderson no longer believed he had orders to make that move.

Then he must have changed his mind. In his message to the AGO on December 27 he refers to "my solemn duty to move my command from a fort which we could not probably held longer than fourty-eight to sixty hours, to this one where my power of resistance is increased to a very great degree."

As long as South Carolina remained in the Union, the forts remained the property of the Union. Their status was much less clear once South Carolina seceded.

Based on what rule of law?

No difference, huh?. Imports to the Port of New York (by far the largest port for imports) averaged about $20,000,000 a month throughout 1860. They started out at $26,000,000 in January 1861, but the last six months averaged about $10,000,000 a month.

You don't suppose the war had something to do with that? Or are you suggesting that all those imports which used to go to New York were now flowing into Southern ports? If that is the case, why didn't the go there before the war broke out?

Wasn't it Lincoln who famously asked "what about my revenues?" or words to that effect before the Sumter attack?

It has been alleged. But at the end of the day why should Lincoln have risked war over the 5% to 7% of the federal revenue provided by Southern imports?

I said on this thread I didn't know what caused Davis to attack the fort, or have you forgotten?

With respect, no you have not. This whole conversation began with your quote, ""The aggressor in war is not the first who uses force, but the first who renders force necessary." I asked what the act of aggression was that made force necessary on the part of Davis and his regime and you really haven't been able to point to what the tipping point was.

69 posted on 03/11/2010 7:39:30 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Read the two sources I cited.

Where's the mob?

[rb]: Anderson no longer believed he had orders to make that move.

[ns]: Then he must have changed his mind. In his message to the AGO on December 27 he refers to "my solemn duty to move my command from a fort which we could not probably held longer than fourty-eight to sixty hours, to this one where my power of resistance is increased to a very great degree."

He refers to his "duty," not to any order to move.

Based on what rule of law?

South Carolina was no longer bound by the US Constitution after they seceded. They offered to purchase the forts (or at least Fort Sumter) from the US in January or February 1861 but were rebuffed. Isn't possession nine tenths of the law?

You don't suppose the war had something to do with that? Or are you suggesting that all those imports which used to go to New York were now flowing into Southern ports? If that is the case, why didn't the go there before the war broke out?

Deja vu. From a link I posted to you in post 68:

Thomas Prentice Kettell published Southern Wealth and Northern Profits in 1860. It broke down the distribution of imports to regions by consumption. For 1859, it calculates Southern consumption of imports as $106,000,000, Western consumption as $63,000,000, and Northern consumption of imports as $149,000,000. Kettell bases the split among regions on Treasury figures from 1856.

The consumer is the one who ends up paying the tariff, even though the tariff might have been collected in New York upon distribution of the goods from New York warehouses. In addition to tariffs on the foreign goods they purchased, Southerners were essentially paying the tariff to Northern manufactures for the goods whose prices were propped up by the tariff. Kettell calculated that the South purchased $240,000,000 of Northern goods in 1859.

I also refer you to Link to my old post 857. That old thread from 857 to 876 addresses the effect of the tariff on trade and New York import firms. From the New York Herald of March 2, 1861 as quoted in that post 857:

The effect of these two tariffs, then, upon our trade with the best, and most reliable part of the country will most disastrously be felt in all the Northern cities. We learn that even now some of the largest houses in the Southern trade in this city, who have not already failed, are preparing to wind up their affairs and abandon business entirely. The result of this as regards the value of property, rents, and real estate, can be readily seen. Within two months from this time it will probably be depreciated from twenty to forty percent.

Here's data on the change in the value of imports at the Port of New York from 1860 to 1861 on a monthly basis [Source of the data that went into my calculation: the 1865 Appleton's]:

Month ... % change from 1860 to 1861
Jan ..... 23.5
Feb ..... -15.6
Mar ..... -22.8
Apr ..... -12.3
May ..... -11.5
Jun ..... -34.0
Jul ..... -40.0
Aug ..... -65.7
Sep ..... -55.1
Oct ..... -49.2
Nov ..... -37.5
Dec ..... -54.8

That Confederate blockade of the Port of New York was really effective, wasn't it?

But at the end of the day why should Lincoln have risked war over the 5% to 7% of the federal revenue provided by Southern imports?

See my points in this post above.

70 posted on 03/11/2010 10:30:31 AM PST by rustbucket
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