Replies

"Precisely my point. Our citizenship laws can not "overrule" or strip citizenship from someone with that foreign citizenship. Unless of course that person voluntarily renounces their foreign citizenship via the Naturalization process. And, similarly, their citizenship laws can not negate ours."

Correct. as you acknowledge in that last sentence, it goes both ways.

We cannot "govern" who they choose to call their citizen, and they cannot "govern" who we choose to call a natural born American citizen.

So a natural born American citizen's status cannot be "governed" by Great Britain. And that is the answer to your question.

"Therefore, Barry...even IF born in HI, would have been born with citizenship from two different country's. He would have been a dual national at birth. No chance the framers would consider such as person (post grandfather clause) to be a NBC of the US with such dual allegiance owed at birth (especially when one allegiance is to a crown)."

Now you have changed the subject.

Dual citizenship and natural born citizenship are not mutually exclusive. Let me give you a very personal example:

I was born on US Territory to two American citizens. By the most strict "Birther" definition, I am a natural born American citizen. But I can even go further. Both my parents were also born on US soil, making them at least 14th Amendment Citizens from Birth.

Yet... according to Italian law, I am also a citizen of Italy. This makes me both a dual citizen and a natural born American citizen at the same time.

My American citizenship cannot be "governed" by Italy. Neither can my Italian citizenship be "governed" by the United States.

Article II is prescriptive, not proscriptive. It tells us what the president must be, not what he cannot be.

He must a be a natural born American citizen. It says nothing about dual citizenship at all.

"Dual citizenship and natural born citizenship are not mutually exclusive."

How can they not be? Someone born with citizenship from two country's can be a Natural Born Citizen of the US?

"I was born on US Territory to two American citizens. By the most strict "Birther" definition, I am a natural born American citizen."

Not so. If you were born on "US Territory" you were born on us soil...were you not? Therefore, you, in that case would in fact be an NBC of the US.

"Both my parents were also born on US soil, making them at least 14th Amendment Citizens from Birth."

If you where born on the soil of the US (whether a state or a territory) AND your parents were citizens (either NBC themselves, Article 14 or Naturalized) at that time of your birth, you would not have been subject to the laws and/or privileges of a foreign country by way of being a citizen/subject of that foreign country.

"Now you have changed the subject."

No, I didn't. It's related. If he's born with foreign citizenship (subject) AND he IF he was born in HI...he would have been born a citizen of two country's. A dual national. How can a NBC of the US be (also) at birth the citizen of another country?

" My American citizenship cannot be "governed" by Italy. Neither can my Italian citizenship be "governed" by the United States."

Precisely the point. Therefore, how could an NBC of the US, also be under the jurisdiction/control/right to privileges of another sovereign country?

Since it's not explicitly defined in the Constitution, we must look elsewhere. We must look to the framers intent. Did they intend, post grandfather clause, to include someone born with citizenship of another country, to be considered something different than a citizen and therefore a Natural Born citizen? If there is no difference between the two, they would not have made the distinction in the Constitution. They would not have done away with Hamilton's suggestion of "citizen" and gone with "natural born citizen" (no doubt as the result of Jay's letter) They clearly differentiated the two, even within the actual requirement itself.

Furthermore, there are early SCOTUS cases which include, in their dicta, the same definition for NBC (born in country, to two citizen parents):

"THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel’s definition of Natural Born Citizen)
SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel)
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel)
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)"

There is no SCOTUS dicta, indicating that someone born with dual citizenship (or foreign citizenship) is considered an NBC of the US.