Posted on 01/14/2010 1:17:00 PM PST by ZGuy
It is excruciating to see the images of human suffering emanating from Haiti in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake. Prayers and practical compassionate care is truly needed.
But sometimes things are said in the midst of crises that exacerbate the already raw feelings of grieving people. So then what's all the fuss about Pat Robertson's remarks?
I first knew something was up while driving yesterday. I heard two national conservative talk radio personalities make some disparaging remarks about Pat Robertson, who, by the way, is one of the reasons they even have jobs. Pat was one of the most important leaders of a resurgent conservative movement.
When I got home I immediately looked up what Pat said and I was overwhelmed. But not by what Robertson had said, rather by the hype and hysteria of those who took an expression of genuine concern and hope for Haiti's future and used it to bash Pat.
Last week it was Fox News analyst Brett Hume's turn to be attacked because he dared to compassionately urge Tiger Woods to turn to Christianity and find forgiveness and redemption. Now it's Pat Robertson's turn.
Perhaps what we have here is a simple failure to communicate, but then again, what Pat said was not complicated. Or is it that there is so much contempt against Pat Robertson and /or what he represents, that no benefit of the doubt is to be afforded him? Or is there something else in play.
What exactly did Pat say that was so terribly egregious?
First he retold a very familiar story about the history of Haiti about a pact that was made by its revolutionary leaders. In exchange for help in throwing out the French Haiti would serve satan. Some have disputed this ever happened. But what is indisputable is Haiti's history ever since then has been one of incredible suffering.
To use Pat's words, Haiti's history was, "cursed, desperately poor." Then Pat went on to describe the incredible economic disparity between Haiti, which sits on one side of the Island of Hispaniola, and the Dominican Republic on the other side. So was Pat using "cursed" literally or metaphorically?
The modern cynic chaffs at any suggestion that there may be a connection between historical realities and unseen spiritual influences, or as the Bible calls it God's "blessing or cursing." Although most people are very comfortable with the notion that God blesses people, we are not at all comforted with the terrifying prospect that Almighty God might also curse.
The overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God and /or moral causality. Eastern religions call it Karma, but Christians call it God's Providence. I wonder if the reason that so many hate Pat is because he expressed what many Americans don't want to face- the moral and spiritual dimension of our lives.
As long as everything is going well we live as if we are never going to die. Then crisis hits and death slaps us in the face. Rather than humbling ourselves and searching our hearts like the Pilgrims did, we lash out at God and anyone who dares insinuate Him into our lives.
What the Robertson bashers left out is that finally, and with great compassion and concern in his voice, Pat said, "They need to have, and we need to pray for them, a great turning to God and out of this tragedy I am optimistic that some good thing may come, but right now we are helping the suffering people and the suffering is unimaginable."
Agree or disagree with what Pat said, it was well within the bounds of historic Christian theology. Maybe that's the real problem after all.
Man is offended by the fact that he is not God. They resent God's Providence. A simple reading of the Bible shows how God uses natural disasters to further his purposes. Earthquakes, floods, famine, locusts, etc. they're all there, but man hates it. Rather than humbly acknowledging that God's ways are not our ways, man rails against and accuses God. The last thing they will do is cry out for his mercy in Jesus Christ.
So Pat is an easy target. But before you judge him perhaps you ought to know that the whole time he was making these comments they had the number on their screen for their viewers to give to their humanitarian relief organization Operation Blessing. OB has already been at work in Haiti long before the earthquake.
Operation Blessing has touched the lives of more than 209.3 million people in 105 countries and all 50 states, providing goods and services valued at more than $1.7 billion. So, once you have surpassed that, then you will be in a better place to judge Pat Robertson. In the meantime, let's do what Pat is doing and bless the poor people of Haiti.
That statement is far from the truth. The Pope has provided “holy water” to Africa. And Haiti has been full of occult religion for a long time.
I keep hearing the word “idiot”. I just want to say to all you Pat Robertson bashers that every idle word will be judged of you when you stand before God. He hears every word and remembers them. (Matthew 12:36)
Not my idea. Jesus Christ said it.
Yes, because that isn't what he said.
In a long report about aid being deployed to Haiti, and in the midst of asking about the aidworkers who were already there before the earthquake, he made his remark about Haiti's founding.
Any missionaries who died there with their flock died due to the earthquake. There are a million ways to die, and all of us will find one of them when our time comes.
But Haiti was a tragic place before the earthquake, and once the damage is cleaned up if nothing changes it will continue to be. He compared it to Dominican Republic which is far from perfect but it is the country Haitians escape to. He commented on that.
The evangelists and teachers and aid workers who have dedicated themselves to Haiti are doing God's work, and Robertson was talking about them too. Take what he says in context. And, like I keep saying, if you want to know why Haiti is uniquely tragic, read their history. They were ruled by a murderous cult for 200 years. Robertson only touched the tip of the iceberg. If you know the connection between freedom and rule of law, and between prosperity and rule of law, then you know those things apply to Haiti as well as they do us.
That’s a very sturdy limb you’re on.
I think what many people are missing here: Pat Robertson doesn’t care what forum posters here think :) He has his ministry, and he has never been shy about connecting the dots he sees of America’s or anyone else’s sins and the resulting disasters.
There is no precedent for it, you may say? The old testament prophets did it ALL THE TIME. We can “say” anything we want about it, only Pat Robertson “knows” if what he is saying is a result of his own prejudices or if they were divinely inspired.
I think that is why I have never seen any benefit to agreeing or disagreeing in public w/Pat Robertson. He is what he is. He sure doesn’t appear to care what people think about his pronouncements.
“If the suffering of the Haitians is evidence of God’s curse on them, he must have really hated the Jews over the last thousand years or so. “
He loves the Jews, but they didn’t know the time of their visitation and they rejected their Messiah. That has consequences.
“If the suffering of the Haitians is evidence of God’s curse on them, he must have really hated the Jews over the last thousand years or so. “
He loves the Jews, but they didn’t know the time of their visitation and they rejected their Messiah. That has consequences.
I’m encouraged to see something other than vilification of Mr. Robertson. Fellow Christians, this is for you. We would do well to study our Bibles before speaking. Some food for thought:
a) It makes no sense to “believe” in something false. The Bible many times exhorts us to not believe in anything false.
b) If we believe in the God of the Bible or are curious, we should strive to read and understand all of the Bible; we should read up on “professing” versus “true belief”.
c) There are many references to God acting directly in the world in the Bible.
d) If we believe that God is the creator of the universe, common sense then dictates that He could control every aspect of it. The Bible affirms this many times.
e) We should study the Bible so that we can respond to people who either 1) speak disparagingly of the Christian faith inferring that God’s purpose is less than righteous or 2) use events such as this to deny or reject God. The response to 1) is that the Bible (the Word of God) makes no promise that our lives will be a bed of roses; it makes no promise that our belief will automatically make our lives free from earthly problems. God _permits_ evil in the world; to understand why is a good reason to actually study the Bible and of course I can’t distill all of Christian theology here. To acknowledge the existence of God but then to simultaneously reject or disparage Him makes no sense. As far as 2), again since the basis of Christian theology, the Bible, does not posit that God will prevent all natural disasters, there is no logical reason to refute God and His Word based on a natural disaster happening.
f) As far as Mr. Robertson’s comments go, we should again go to the Bible. We certainly can conclude that God permitted this disaster to happen. The Bible teaches us that we will not always understand God’s purpose. We can see the history of Haiti for hundreds of years has been one of very widespread unscriptural behavior. Which is why the real aid Haiti needs is the Gospel, as true faith comes from hearing the Word. The Bible says that we are saved by Grace through faith. Once saved, we realize that we are bought with a price and that we need to live as Christ would have us live. If we live according to the Word, blessings will surely follow, even if we don’t always completely understand them. This makes sense on a simple, common-sense level, when one considers the Biblical exhortations to truth, wisdom, diligence, education, families, political leaders, etc. I find that sometimes I agree with Mr. Robertson and sometimes I don’t; I do not know the answer as to whether this disaster is judgment. But in this case, his comment was so startling to so many who spend a great deal of mental energy vilifying the God they say does not exist, that it created a big stir. Hopefully Christians can use this to have some common-sense conversations which might spread the Gospel and glorify God.
All:
I pray that you would take some time to study the Bible for yourself; and, if something doesn’t make sense, search out good Bible-believing pastors to ask questions of. Also, there are many interesting (though not infallible) books as well as the Reformed Confessions which can help in your study.
Marginally?
Dominican Republic per-capita GDP: $8,200 (2008 est.)
Haiti per-capita GDP: $1,300 (2008 est.)
That's over 6 times the per-capita GDP. It's not "marginal".
Well of *course* he hates them -- they haven't signed on to the Christian religion -- they got what they had coming to them! Of course, God must have hated his only son too -- look what happened to him! < /s>
Why do you relegate the Haitians’ Black Magic to the past? As I understand it, they’ve continued that stuff right up to the present.
“Try reading through the New Testament and then imagining Jesus responding to a disaster like this the way Robertson did.
Robertson is a mean-spirited whackjob. God will deal with him in due course.”
You are SO wrong!
How about: John 3:16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
How about this one? Mat 25:41""Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Lastly Rev 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
You may be right. My friends who were in DR thought it was very poor (by US standards) and they may have been correct. But when you compare it to Haiti, they may be relatively well off. As I’ve stated, I’m going by second hand info from people who were there over a decade ago.
"The elder Pliny in his Natural History refers to the obelisk's transportation from Egypt to Rome by order of the Emperor Gaius (Caligula) as an outstanding event. The barge that carried it had a huge mast of fir wood which four men's arms could not encircle. The obelisk, half-buried in the debris of the ages, was first excavated as it stood; then it took from April 30 to May 17, 1586 to move it on rollers to the Piazza: it required nearly 1000 men, 140 carthorses, 47 cranes. The re-erection, scheduled for September 14, the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, was watched by a large crowd. It was a famous feat of engineering, which made the reputation of Fontana, who detailed it in a book illustrated with copperplate etchings, Della Trasportatione dell'Obelisco Vaticano et delle Fabriche di Nostro Signore Papa Sisto V (1590),[10][11] which itself set a new standard in communicating technical information and influenced subsequent architectural publications by its meticulous precision.[12] Before being re-erected the obelisk was exorcised.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:11-13.
Yeah, God forbid Robertson say something like “Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you” or “Unless you repent you will all perish as well.” You might want to brush up a bit.
HaitiHaiti's per-capita GDP is very close to the per-capita GDP of the average sub-Saharan West African country.black 95%, mulatto and white 5%Dominican Republicmixed 73%, white 16%, black 11%
I don't.
What I was commenting on was Pat's comment, linking the 1791 satanic pact as the reason for Haiti being "cursed" by one thing after another ever since, including the recent earthquake.
Yes, all Christians should speak out against satanism, but we should be careful not to do so in the manner of casting stones.
There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13
Are the victims of the earthquake sinners above all people that dwell in the Caribbean or in the Americas?
Our own country just elected as president a man whose most important spiritual adviser has been Jeremiah Wright.
Haiti has voodoo. America has atheism, paganism, abortion, promiscuity, illegitimacy, homosexuality, covetousness, and every other sin one can name, including voodoo in places like Miami.
As Jefferson said, "Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever."
>Hyst wgat us an IDOT anyway
Some people’s children! An IDOT is a TYPO. I suppose you’ve never made on.
Here’s a little tip. When trying to make a case using “You know” and “and whatever”, it kind of gives the impression that you don’t know what the Hell you’re talking about.
Three words: truth in advertising
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