Posted on 12/07/2009 7:25:33 AM PST by oblomov
OK, although we were already in the war before the Gulf of TOnkin, but not in a committed way, so I’ll grant that.
And the Iraq war is usually called the Iraq war, not the Gulf war. The Gulf war was the first war.
If we just got rid of all nuclear weapons, there would be peace and prosperity. After all, we all know there were no wars before the U.S. built the evil bomb.
If this is true, then it is quite possible that FDR might have thought that a two-carrier strike against Pearl Harbor would have caused moderate damage. Remember that the Japanese had to come up with some radical ideas in order to get their torpedoes to operate in the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor. Without torpedoes, they would have been restricted to aerial bombs, which were thought to be fairly useless against battleships (although the disaster of the Arizona quickly proved them wrong).
My guess is that FDR understood the nature of Hitler and the Nazis, and the nature of Imperial Japan. I don’t know how much we understood about German technology, but at this time, it’s clear that Germany, the US, and Japan all knew about the theory of nuclear weapons. Japan decided against pursuing a nuclear program, and concentrated on biological warfare. Germany pursued nuclear technology, and if the US had waited to enter the war, might have developed it early enough to deploy it.
Germany being in possession of the bomb would have necessitated a surrender by Britain.
I think FDR wanted us in because he knew time was short, and once the moment passed, it would never be regained.
Those are my thoughts, and I have no disparaging remarks for others who think differently.
Speaking of MacArthur, I have always thought that assuming FDR "knew" a Japanese attack was imminent (a proposition I don't really buy), he thought the attack would be in the Far East, not Hawaii. MacArthur, the Philippines and the Asiatic Fleet were all to be the sacrificial lambs.
What? And you call yourself a Freeper? Seriously, though, good answers and speculations. Thanks.
True. Many people were still thinking in a WWI mindset, where planes were of limited effectiveness. We're talking of a time when only about 25 years earlier, there were still horse mounted calvary.
You would think that if he did so much research he would have gotten the FDR quote correct. It is not “Day of Infamy” but rather “...A Date Which Will Live in Infamy.”
Below is a link to a respected US Navy Crypto Officer, who was in the Navy Security Group before and after the attack on Pearl.
Mr Jacobsen reviews “Day of Deceit” and points out his knowledge to refute much of what was written and said.
http://intellit.muskingum.edu/alpha_folder/J_folder/jacobsen_p.html
Roosevelt’s actions before Pearl Harbor appeared to ones to provoke the Japanese into attacking our Naval forces. Then we could declare war on the Axis Member, Japan, and have the Axis declare war against us. However, the horror of Pearl Harbor was probably unexpected, and that attack was the official beginning of America’s involvement in WWII.
“And the Iraq war is usually called the Iraq war, not the Gulf war. The Gulf war was the first war.”
Yeah, but who knows? People make mistakes all the time.
ping for later
“I’m not sure why FDR would want to enter the war at all unless he somehow thought it would forward his agenda. In fact he specifically promised that we’d stay out of war. Of course after the war started FDR was rewarded with even more control of Gov.”
Isn’t this after Hitler invaded Russia ? When Russia was on the side of Germany, no one in the US wanted war
And Obama is a Natural Born Citizen!
I think you may be referring to the infamous 14 part message. There is a great deal of confusion between Japanese Naval ciphers and diplomatic ciphers. The Navy had broken both, as it turns out. The Navy was much more concerned about Japan than the Army, for obvious reasons.
There was no message which said, "Attack Pearl Harbor on December 7 at 0630 HR" or anything to that effect. The 14 part message was the final transmission from Tokyo to its Washington embassy prior to the war. It contained an ultimatum that the Japanese embassador was instructed to deliver to Secretary of State Hull at 2:00 PM Washington time, which would be 6:00 AM Hawaiian time, warning of a breach in relations if not accepted. It also contained instructions for the Japanese delegation to destroy their code machines, a clear indication they intended to break relations with the U.S.
The Japanese believed that presenting the ultimatum prior to the attack would constitute a defense against a charge of a surprise attack, that is an attack preceding a declaration of War.
As luck would have it, the Japanese code machines suffered mechanical breakdowns and the message was delivered late, after Secretary Hull was already aware of the already ongoing Pearl Harbor attack. Secretary Hull also had a copy of the Japanese ultimatum and the entire 14 part message because the American analog of the Japanese code machines, constructed by cryptanalysis, used brass contacts where the Japanese used copper and were therefore more durable and reliable. How times change.
Hull threw out the humiliated Japanese delegation in a huff, being already aware of the contents of the ultimatum and the rest of the 14 part message.
The Navy intelligence officers who decoded the messages and their superiors took the message as tantamount to a declaration of War. They wanted to send a warning to Hawaii and the Pacific in general. The Navy's link to Pearl was via a 1 kW HF radio transmitter and there was a lot of static in the ionosphere that evening. The Army, just down the hall, had a 10 kW transmitter, which could punch through, but rather than impose on the Army for a favor they sent the encrypted message via Western Union. A Japanese-American Western Union bicycle courier arrived at Admiral Kimmel's home on Sunday morning with the warning from Washington some time after the Arizona had rolled over at her berth.
There is a great deal to blame Roosevelt for, but it is highly unlikely he had any specific foreknowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor. General laxity of the Army and the Navy in Hawaii prior to Pearl Harbor probably contributed more to Japanese success than any other single factor.
Everyone at that time knew that war with Japan was inevitable. However, does that translate into FDR knowing that on Sunday, December 7, 1941 Japan was going to bomb Pearl Harbor? No. There may have been negligence but there was not malice.
On December 7, 1941, my father was on active duty with New York's 101st NG Cavalry Regiment. The German Army that invaded Russia had 600,000 horses (more than Napolean brought to the task) and only 3200 tanks, although someone brought up on Hollywood depictions would think those numbers reversed. Actually, horses were a very practical means of transport in Eastern Europe, especially during the spring wet season.
Thank you. That is probably what I remember reading but it has been a long time since I read it.
I think FDR, despite the occasional bones he may have thrown to the “America First” crowd, had to know that war was inevitable even back in 1939, but politically he knew it was a loser to suggest it.
“clear that Germany, the US, and Japan all knew about the theory of nuclear weapons”
I read an article, years ago, written by a Japanese scientist that witnessed the first explosion. He was familiar with the theory of nuclear weapons and said his first reaction was a sense of awe (that the bomb was possible), then he realized what he was witnessing.
Have tried to find it online but haven’t been able to. He also said that he did not fault the U. S. for using the bomb, that Japan would have used it if they had it.
I have also read that the reason that Japan was reluctant to us biological weapons was because they were afraid it would result in a escalation that would have worked again them.
Turned out that Germany was closer to jet airplanes than the bomb. Jets could have allowed Germany to regain control of their airspace and at least prolonged the war.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.