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To: Natural Law; raygunfan; broncobilly; GovernmentShrinker
This applies to an open system if, and only if, the system boundaries are expanded sufficiently to effectively establish a larger "closed" system and if the time interval for the process is is sufficiently increased to normalize the expanded system. However, Entropy does not imply that there can be no brief moments, even in a closed system, in which the order may be increased. It only establishes that the level of organization will trend toward some minimum value over time. The few billions of years life has been on earth, in the context of the infinite life of the universe, can manifest one of those brief moments. Do the math.

Except that the universe is not infinite in time and billions of years is not a *brief moment*. Besides, the level of complexity of information carrying DNA is not just a little bit of order.

And under any circumstances, simply pouring energy into a system, open or closed, is not going to cause a decrease in entropy unless work is being done on the system. Name the source of the work.

For the level of complexity and order to have existed for so long, there must be some kind of work being done in the system, which uses energy. The kinds of spontaneous appearances of order in an random system that are likely to appear are not likely to be so complex.

109 posted on 11/21/2009 7:44:46 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Good points.


115 posted on 11/21/2009 8:23:31 AM PST by broncobilly
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To: metmom

==And under any circumstances, simply pouring energy into a system, open or closed, is not going to cause a decrease in entropy unless work is being done on the system. Name the source of the work.

In fact, the ONLY known, empirical, reproducible cause for harnessing the sun’s energy to produce work is intelligent design!


118 posted on 11/21/2009 9:45:24 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom
The kinds of spontaneous appearances of order in an random system that are likely to appear are not likely to be so complex.

Neither the universe, nor the earth, nor any appreciable part of the natural world, is a "random system". They are systems of law: the laws of nature. Furthermore, since the laws of nature are a single system, and ultimately connect everything -- connect all systems -- spontaneously arising order in one system, or one part of a system, can, and often does, generate order, and/or increase complexity, in other parts of the system.

Once you look around a bit it's a fairly obvious characteristic of such a system, of this world, that "spontaneous appearances of order" often start simple and then, because of these connections, get more complex, even before getting to biology.

For example convection cells spontaneously appear in a system where heat is unevenly distributed, not because anyone makes or designs them, but simply as a result of the laws of physics. Consider all that comes from that in the case of our own earth:

Assume that this planet did indeed begin as a simple molten mass. A big, hot ball will cool. But the laws of physics don't allow it to cool evenly. Heat escapes from the outside, so the outside cools more quickly while the inside remains hotter. In consequence convection cells form in the earth's interior. Because the molten material in the earth contains lots of iron, that orderly movement creates a magnetic field. That magnetic field creates a barrier around the earth which deflects the most energetic and destructive particles from the sun. This allows the earth to develop and maintain a complex atmosphere. That allows complex and orderly systems like weather to develop.

The magnetic shield also allows chemical compounds to exist on the earth's surface which would otherwise be destroyed by the energy from the solar wind. It creates complex (and beautiful) phenomena like the Northern Lights.

The convection currents in the earth's interior also move the earth's crust, driving continental drift, in consequence causing mountains and continents to rise.

All this, and much more, from the simple cooling of a big, hot ball.

119 posted on 11/21/2009 9:54:27 AM PST by Stultis (Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia; Democrats always opposed waterboarding as torture)
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To: metmom

“And under any circumstances, simply pouring energy into a system, open or closed, is not going to cause a decrease in entropy unless work is being done on the system.”

Just about anywhere on earth pouring energy in decreases entropy. It’s called “springtime”.

Evolution could be described as the competition for available energy to do exactly that - decrease entropy.


133 posted on 11/21/2009 12:25:02 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: metmom
"Except that the universe is not infinite in time and billions of years is not a *brief moment*."

Show me the math.

And under any circumstances, simply pouring energy into a system, open or closed, is not going to cause a decrease in entropy unless work is being done on the system.

You have stated a logical paradox than cannot be addressed with math. If energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed and the "system" you are referring to is an infinite universe all existing energy is already present. Addition is impossible.

For the level of complexity and order to have existed for so long, there must be some kind of work being done in the system, which uses energy.

We are not in disagreement on this, there was a Creator and an Intelligent Design. I only take the position that, through math and science, God is revealing the processes He used.

135 posted on 11/21/2009 12:42:13 PM PST by Natural Law
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