Posted on 11/03/2009 9:57:44 AM PST by AreaMan
Every person is evil and immoral atheist or no because all have a sin nature.
Only God is good.
Krishnamurti
I suppose if people think of Christianity as a "noble lie" that is useful for keeping the great unwashed masses in line and well behaved while the grown ups go about the "real" business of life.
If you seriously, rigorously question the meaning of the word, I submit that it has no meaning without God's commandments.
Without a fixed, immovable standard, what is "good" and what is "bad" becomes a subjective thing. In other words, it's entirely dependent on the standards of the individual asking the question, which may be anything at all. Hence, the word "good" wouldn't really mean anything specific.
To a junkie, "good" might mean "gives me a long-lasting high".
To an alcoholic, "good" might mean "goes down smooth with no aftertaste".
To a rapist, "good" might mean "doesn't scream".
So you are saying that being good is what? A learned behavior? Genetic?
Also why are these people less likely to run amok if the don't believe in God?
Paul explains that the laws of God are written on the hearts of man, so no man has an excuse for not knowing what is good.
So in a way the answer is “Yes, a person who does not believe in God can do good.”
But as a believer, there is an understanding that the fact that a person can do good is due to the fact that God has imbued each person with an understanding of his laws.
So the answer, from a believer’s perspective, is “No, good comes from God, whether or not a person is aware of his work in them.”
I think you misunderstand the meaning of Natural Law; which is an 18th century term for God's laws; which are superior to any man-made codes. Some of that Law is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence: “Life, Liberty, (property) pursuit of happiness”. It was our Founders’ assumption when they framed the constitution that our people would ALWAYS conform to natural law.
Atheists eschew the concept of natural law and consider man's laws to be the ultimate standard.
Just ask Conan the Barbarian....
So what is good and evil without a God? It is anything you think it is at the time, isn’t it? So your answer is no.
That silliness that keeps people behaving well, so sure why not put up with it.
There are many anti-Christian news items these days that it almost not even “news”.
It would be news if there was support for Christians by non religious people.
Is there good without God?
No, since God Himself defines good for us.
You or I could give the world our definition of good but since we have no more authority in the matter than anyone else, anyone else can just dismiss us.
For example, cowardice is universally wrong; especially when it involves failing to help another human being in danger.
Where do these core values of right and wrong come from? Certainly NOT from any "natural selection", as many of them are contrary to self-preservation!
I recommend CS Lewis's commentary on the matter in his book "Mere Christianity", as he discusses some universal truths that led him to reject his atheism and become a Christian.
Just out of curiosity, how do you know that what God says is good, or for that matter that God is good?
If you think God is good, by what standard of values are you making that judgement.
If you say God’s standard, by that method anyone or anything can claim to be good. “By my standards I am good,” says God, or anyone else.
An objective standard of good must exist before any agent can make claim to being good. Arbitrary pronouncements of good and evil are just that, arbitraty, not absolute. If your standard of good and evil are, “whatever God says is good and evil,” you do not believe in absolute values, but values based on the arbitrary whims of your God. You can have no confidence that what He says is good today, will still be good tomorrow. Since He sets the standards, He can make them anything He chooses, right?
Hank
Perhaps incidentally, but the moment they substitute their own judgement in the matter of good and bad for God's and or act upon it they become ‘evil doer's’ by literal definition. (Your “out to get everyone” stipulation has nothing to do with anything).
This one is too easy...first off as Christians we never classify ourselves as "Good" it's anthemia to the message of the gospels. We all sin, we are all sinners, we in the face of the perfect man Jesus Christ are depraved and wicked. We accept that and try each day to be "Christ-like". We read God's word, pray, and through fellowship with other saved people understand crystal clear what constitutes good and evil. We sharpen our skills at discernment. Your question and your conundrum proves my point, being caught in a moral relativists wasteland where you are left obsessing at the meaning of words. It's easy if you are open to the message of the Gospel, if you continue in rebellion and rely on your own mental prowess to create a concrete worldview on sand you will fail. God just is, like gravity whether you choose to believe it doesnt matter, it just is. Too much evidence to support Jesus, God and veracity of the Bible to think otherwise
predicated that you earnestly search and not harden your heart and close your mind.
The inescapable conclusion of your words is that the entire non-Christian world is comprised of evil-doers (by literal definition, as they have substituted their own judgement for the Christian God's judgement of good/evil). Every single last one of them.
If your conclusion, which is so obviously wrong on its face, is so far off the mark, it leads one to question your premise. Which I do.
Believe in God or don't. Accept Him or dismiss Him as you wish. But to pervert “logic” by lumping, in the matter of Authority, the Author of all things and even time itself with the guy down the block is ridiculous. God SAYS that he is final, unmovable, the Alpha and Omega. That certainty, that unmovable stability, IS THE VERY THING THAT HE HOLDS OUT TO US, who are pitched about in the tempest that is His Creation.
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