Posted on 10/29/2009 10:22:08 PM PDT by VRWCTexan
BreakingNews San Diego media: 9 missing after collision of Coast Guard C-130 and Marine Cobra helicopter off the SD coast. BNO News working to confirm.
I flew Cobras out of Camp Pendleton from 1998-2002 with HMLA 169 “the Vipers”.
I’d like to put my 2 cents worth in here on some things that have been said.
Pylon, you mention “goofing off” or “hot dogging”. Aviators use the term “flat hatting” to describe what you’re talking about, and let me just say that there’s another possible explanation for what you were seeing. I believe what you were seeing were tactical turns. “Whipping around” is how a section of Cobras (2) orients themselves on to an enemy that has opened fire on them from the rear of either flank. Is it fun? Yes. Does it look like “flat hatting”? Sure. But it is essential to how we fight ad survive, and although I cannot unequivocally state that what you were seeing were tac turns - I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, if I were still flying, I’d be flat hatting over Otay Mesa, not along the Coast where a bunch of active duty folks could tattle!!
Second, Cobra’s DO NOT have radar or any other collision avoidance gear, per se. The main gun is fired using FLIR, TV camera or Kentucky windage. The Hellfire missile is guided by a laser spot and the TOW missile is a combination of TV camera and wire guidance. The Cobra is capable of carrying AIM-9 anti-aircraft missiles, but those are heat seekers. Collision avoidance in a Cobra boils down to keeping your eyes open, depending on whatever controlling agency (if there is one) and also being tuned up to the local traffic common frequency and listening for aircraft checking in with their numbers (location, airspeed, altitude, heading).
Third, when I was flying, we shot our weapons on San Celemente - rarely - but we shot. Alot of other posts talk about how strange it would be for these two aircraft to be in the same airspace. Well....speaking from a pilot’s perspective - we trained in and around San Clemente, and C-130’s are in the business of patrolling those waters for a multitude of reasons - its more surprising that they were at the same altitude, not over the same point on the ground.
Fourth, Cobras can’t aerial refuel. The only Marine Helo that can aerial refuel is the CH-53E.
Finally, it’s always sad when these things happen. I was a mishap investigator and I can say that there are always learning points that come out of the investigation and that whatever series of events led up to this thing will be briefed and re-briefed to all the ready rooms up and down the coast. Hopefully, the guys who are left behind will be armed with information that will help them execute there jobs that much safer.
God Bless them and their families.
Prayers up for all the loved ones of these men that are no longer with us.
Prayers for them.
I was at Long Beach 1978 to 1981. I did go to SAR school.
I recall reading recently, more illegals coming in by boat. There is no end to the troubles and tragedies these mexicans cause us.
Any word of any survivors yet?
Neither have any air to air radar and must depend on the Mark I eyeballs to avoid collisions. They also rely on Air Traffic Control to tell them about other "traffic" in their vicinity.
Neither have any air to air radar and must depend on the Mark I eyeballs to avoid collisions. They also rely on Air Traffic Control to tell them about other "traffic" in their vicinity. Both probably have FLIR and/or TV type systems. The Cobra's would be for finding and tracking ground targets, but could be used to some extent for air to air work. Coast Gaurd C-130 would have a radar, but likely one intended mostly for surface search.
Not unusual for crashes in that area
due to Military exercises but I agree this was odd.
Also the C-130 all the way from Sac when the Coast Guard
here does search and rescue in that area to off Baja
and even further.
I live a few miles from the Coast Guard Air Base here in San Diego. They sent CG CutterS out last night from here
along with Navy.
(CG does great work)
Thanks for your comments
Search continues for survivors of Coast Guard-Marines crash
By Jeanette Steele and Karen Kucher
SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITERS
October 30, 2009, updated 10:25 a.m., October 30, 2009
SAN DIEGO – The aviation division for Camp Pendleton and Miramar has suspended all flights through the weekend amid the continuing search for survivors of a Thursday night collision between a Coast Guard transport plane and a Marine helicopter off San Clemente Island.
Seven people were aboard the HC-130 Hercules that went down, and the AH-1 Super Cobra helicopter carried two pilots from Camp Pendleton. They crashed about 7:10 p.m., said Marine spokesman Maj. Jay Delarosa.
Rescue crews haven’t found any bodies or survivors, but have recovered some wreckage. Coast Guard and Marine officials said everyone in the crash was physically fit, had excellent survival equipment and knew how to handle water landings.
People generally can survive for roughly 20 hours based on the current weather and water conditions, Coast Guard officials said Thursday night. But during a news conference Friday morning, they stressed that it really depends on each individual’s stamina.
“We will continue searching. We believe there’s viability,” said Capt. Thomas Ferris, commanding officer of the Coast Guard sector in San Diego.
His service has four helicopters and three patrol boats scouring a 644-square-mile area.
On land, Coast Guard, Marine and Navy officials are trying to piece together how the collision occurred.
About 3:30 p.m. Thursday, Coast Guard plane 1705 left McClellan Air Park in Sacramento with seven crew members, said Coast Guard Lt. Randall Black.
It reached the San Diego coast around 4:45 p.m. to search for a rower who had been missing for two days after setting out in a 12-foot dinghy for Catalina Island. The plane flew over the San Clemente Island area based on estimates of where ocean currents may have taken the dinghy.
It was maintaining an elevation of 900 to 1,000 feet during its search operation.
Meanwhile, two CH-53 Sea Stallions took off at a still-unspecified time from Miramar Marine Corps Air Station. They met up along the San Diego coast with two Super Cobras that had departed from Camp Pendleton, and the combined group headed toward San Clemente Island for a training mission.
Authorities said they will listen to recordings from air traffic controllers to determine whether there was a distress call, and to gauge whether the Coast Guard crew was in contact with the Marine helicopters.
Weather conditions were good at the time, and the Hercules has radar warning systems. But Coast Guard officials said pilots are still ultimately responsible for following a “see and avoid” protocol because those systems aren’t perfect.
Based on the time of the crash, the Marines likely were wearing night-vision goggles, Delarosa said. It’s unclear whether the goggles might have affected the pilot’s visibility.
The four helicopters belong to the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, which is headquartered at Miramar. The division’s leaders will use their three-day “operational pause” to talk with the rank and file about safety procedures and other issues.
Including Thursday’s collision, there have been three military helicopter crashes around San Diego County this year.
On May 5, two Miramar-based Marines were killed when their Super Cobra helicopter crashed in the Cleveland National Forest, about six miles east of Pine Valley.
An investigation showed that the accident stemmed from a transmission cover that wasn’t fully secured. The cover flew off during flight and struck the tail rotor, sending the aircraft plunging.
On May 19, five crew members of a Navy HH-60H Seahawk helicopter were killed when their aircraft crashed in the Pacific Ocean about 15 miles south of Point Loma. The cause of that incident has not been made public.
How far is this spot from the nearest ground control radar? How low would they likely have been.
If no transponder, or too far and too low (a combination) from the ground radar, they wouldn't show on the ATC's screen.
At one time Ream Field Imperial Beach was the major Helicopter Base and known Helicopter capital of the world
Later the choppers were located over to North Island Naval Air Station.
Ream Field, Imperial Beach is now a Naval Auxiliary area
and presently operates as a branch of the NAS North Island Naval station.
Border Patrol choppers may also use the field as is close to the border.
Well since you flew somewhat in the area you may know where Chula Vista is geographically and it is now a pretty densely populated area of over 200,000 people. These turns and maneuvers I was talking about and you described have taken place right over my neighborhood, a residential area smack dab in the middle of the city, 5 miles east of the coast and North of Otay. I don't see them practicing these moves at 500-100 ft above homes and schools so I wondered why they were doing it here. As far as the refueling, another poster had mentioned if it was refueling at the time, I was simply pointing out that while the CC 130's can do midair refueling, I didn't know if they train with NAVY and Marine choppers with it but I did know they can refuel or have done it with CC choppers. I knew San Clemente was a training area which is why I would be surprised that neither craft would not be very aware of the area and the amount of air traffic that could be around the area at the same time which surprises me that something like this could happen but it does. I guess with the 130 doing a search, eyes may have been looking down instead of out for a brief moment and yes now that you mention it the altitude is odd unless the 130 was lower then normal being a search they were on. I didn't think the Cobra would have any collision avoidance where as the C-130 probably does, but with Cobras flying low and in a crowd when in battle I would have thought they maybe had something. But it is a sad and tragic event and our country has maybe lost 9 brave souls. Still holding out all hope that survivors will be found.
It stills seems to be busy in the area at times, especially at night. I have a friend who was in the BP back in the 80’s and 90’s and said many times, illegal immigrants who get over the fence and would be sprinting across as choppers were buzzing around. Crazy. Hopefully they have corrected that problem.
22 hours and still no word. Not good.
Horrible and tragic. My prayers go out to their families, who have - like the country - lost two patriots.
How is it that you can live in Southern California; which you rarely fail to mention, and never have learned to properly spell Marine Corps Air Station Miramar?
What a sad life you live to go through a two day old thread
to play spell Nazi.
Even though I have supported myself throughout several decades with dyslexia, over 8 major orthpedic surgeries, neuro surgery, cancer surgery, which will come back not if but when, 24/7 major pain from herniated and degenerated disks in my spine from the Cs to the Ls
I don’t worry about a miss spell or typeO.
It seems there are too many on FR who have projection, displacement,and other disorders. When I see posts
which are not simply an immediate reply but one sought out
long after the fact, there is a real underlining personal problem
From fleet service. VX-30 continues to fly four S-3s and NASA flies one as well.
PhiKapMom
They should have been retired a long time ago.
Incorrect. Lots of life left in those Vikings and NAVAIR is left shorthanded with no viable replacement for the S-3s ASW capability.
Rumor going around that the incident was caused when a fishing vessel shined a high intensity searchlight at the Cobra. The aviators were wearing night vision goggles and were essentially blinded. They then flew into the C-130, which was part of a SAR exercise.
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