American college grads: Homebodies with worthless degrees

time ^ | October 15, 2009 | Justin Fox

[george76]

I had a somewhat disturbing conversation yesterday with Steve Fussell, the senior VP of human resources at pharmaceutical maker Abbott. His basic message, which I may pursue in a column down the road, was that Abbott is going to be hiring tons of people for high-paying jobs over the next decade, but not many of them will be Americans because we study the wrong things in college and we're not willing to work overseas.

The key quotes:

1) "I hate to say we don't have the world's best universities. We may have the best minds, the best liberal arts education. The problem is it doesn't match the work anymore." (That is to say, not enough students are getting science and math degrees.)

2) "I don't have these graduates in Europe and Asia telling us they want to live with mom and dad or they don't want to relocate to Asia."

[Chode]

any degree with a Something Studies degree is worthless and might better spent the money going to bar tending school...

[gaijin]

Universities often consider private markets unpleasant or yucky. For this reason they teach courses that often have little to do with real markets; the outlook of the professors and the syllabi reflect this.

The more a prof eschews market, the more he is worthy of academic dignity and legitimacy.

Is it any wonder that those who graduate cannot market themselves, or compete in that market? No.

The solution is to bring universities to the market, which means moving it all ONLINE. The only complication would be LABS —noting more.

[slorunner]

I spent most of my career working overseas and found it more challenging, fulfilling and enjoyable than working in the States. Money was sometimes but not always higher than the US and the challenge and rewards of adapting to other cultures and ways of doing things were of great appeal.

After nearly 40 years and work on 5 continents I can say the best place was (the old) South Africa and the worst (although a great place to live) where I saw more corruption and shoddy work in public heavy construction than in any (other) 3rd world country.

As for wages, generally now European wages are higher than US as are living costs.

[truthguy]

What do they pay a mid-career biomed technician? What do they pay a mid-career PhD biochemist with a solid track record of pharmaceutical development? What do they pay the MBA's/JDs in their finance, marketing and government relations departments? I think they will discover that they have incentivized their own personnel problems.

You NAILED it! An absolutely brilliant statement. I see this first hand. In the United States the fastest way to economic mediocrity is a Engineering or Science degree. Yes you will be able to get a job but you will level off in pay after a period of time unless you go into management.

I have two engineering degrees from a excellent University and I've seen people who sell real estate make a lot more money than me. I know people I use to help with their math in school make 2-3X more money in banking, finance, marketing, etc. So you are right. Corporations want technical workers with advanced degrees who will work 60 hours a week. They want to pay them low wages. They want to keep them in mid level jobs and then after 20 years of so, they want to replace them with new people.

If corporations want more engineers and scientists, they they should reward these professions, and then there won't be a problem with supply.

[Oldexpat]

I spent almost my entire career working overseas,,mostly in Asia as an expat engineer/marketer. Now most of the jobs are being filled by foreigners, because there are more foreign engineers and US tax law(we tax our expats) disfavors US citizens. It is cheaper to hire a foreigner because they only pay local taxes.
It is also hard to find US citizens now that are willing to work in the developing world even with great perks, pay and contracts. Much harder if you want engineers.

[Oldexpat]

I spent almost my entire career working overseas,,mostly in Asia as an expat engineer/marketer. Now most of the jobs are being filled by foreigners, because there are more foreign engineers and US tax law(we tax our expats) disfavors US citizens. It is cheaper to hire a foreigner because they only pay local taxes.
It is also hard to find US citizens now that are willing to work in the developing world even with great perks, pay and contracts. Much harder if you want engineers.

[Oldexpat]

I spent almost my entire career working overseas,,mostly in Asia as an expat engineer/marketer. Now most of the jobs are being filled by foreigners, because there are more foreign engineers and US tax law(we tax our expats) disfavors US citizens. It is cheaper to hire a foreigner because they only pay local taxes.
It is also hard to find US citizens now that are willing to work in the developing world even with great perks, pay and contracts. Much harder if you want engineers.

[elpadre]

In my years (70’s) hiring professionals for an industrial plant, I found regional universities did the best job. Engineering, Business Adm and industrial technologies/management degrees were a good fit for first level management openings and bottom level positions in engineering and administration. Also, it seemed the top grads academically had a more difficult time working in groups and teams.

[SatinDoll]

PING for later reading.

[SatinDoll]

PING for later reading.

[ccmay]

Any major with Science in its name isn't really science, and anything with Studies in its name isn't worth studying.

[freekitty]

We saw this coming a long time ago. I was guessing 30,000 a year jobs; but now they will be lucky to find a job.

They can thank Obama and his Hopey Changey. He not only knocked their dreams to the ground; they are further in debt without a prayer of getting out.

That’s your hopey changey guys. While you suffer; he is living the high life and he doesn’t care. Just keep listening and believing his lies and you will never advance.

[BuffaloJack]

> I am glad I have an EE degree and have my PE.
Perdogg,
I don’t have a PE, but I do save a bunch of BS degrees.
Chemical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. And Yes, I’m glad I have them. It makes getting a job real easy in even a depressed job market.

[dglang]

I never went to college, I joined the army immediately after graduating from High school back in the 60,s. When I got out of the army, I took the first job offer I got which was working with computers as a set up clerk at a large insurance company in Chicago.

I went on to be an operator, rising to the position of lead/senior operator and then into programming where I finished up owning my own consulting company. At one major telecom company, I was hired to consult as a ‘Systems Engineer’.

I taught myself programming beginning with 1401 Autocoder and then COBOL. My career specialty is COBOL and IBM's IMS database and DATA COMMUNICATIONS (IMS DB/DC) systems.

ALL my programming skills were self taught.

I remember working at one company that hired a recent college graduate who had both BS and MS degrees in computer science.

They hired her as a ‘systems analyst’ and then had to send her to a special computer school for a full year because she didn't understand basic business programming or systems design.

She got the job simply because of her degrees, but she was totally incompetent to hold that job without an additional full years training.

Sometimes, having a degree will get someone a job no matter how incompetent they are while not having a degree will prevent teh most capable person from getting a job they are completely qualified for and totally capable of doing.

[Professional Engineer]

They are fortunate that people doing the hiring and firing don't hold your view.

I agree with bunnyslippers here. I hire and fire. An MBA means zero to me.

[WOSG]

“I would never encourage a young person to go into a scientific field unless they were curious and had a fallback plan for making a living.”

The OPPOSITE is the advice you should give:

If you are going to spend money on a College degree, the ONLY degrees worth paying for are professional degrees in science and engineering ... every job, from doctor to lawyer to business - and of course engineer or researcher - benefits from science background.

As for what to do - do what you like and also pays well.

[Dumb_Ox]

The problem is it doesn't match the work anymore." (That is to say, not enough students are getting science and math degrees.)

Has anyone yet refuted Business Week's The Science Education Myth?

from 1985 to 2000 about 435,000 U.S. citizens and permanent residents a year graduated with bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees in science and engineering. Over the same period, there were about 150,000 jobs added annually to the science and engineering workforce.

There are actually too many math and science students for the market. A friend of mine who graduated Summa Cum Laude in physics is now retraining to become a math teacher. Is a bachelor's in physics or biology really that marketable?

"I don't have these graduates in Europe and Asia telling us they want to live with mom and dad or they don't want to relocate to Asia."

So Americans are more loyal to hearth and home than foreigners. In my opinion, this is a plus. If aging mom and dad don't have their kids to help them, they'll be more likely to rely on government. Kids who stay near home can preserve local culture and love for liberty. Overseas they might only learn about exotic drinks and weird pop culture.

[gidget7]

EASY. They get most of the financial aid, or at ay rate, get it first, and they get the college loans with little to no questions asked. It is much harder for Americans, especially those who are not a minority group. Sad, but true!

[VoiceOfBruck]

I’ve spent a lot more time on the interviewer side of the desk and can tell you that I don’t hire the degree; I hire the person. That person comes with educational, skills, expertise, experience, expectations, etc., and we make the best decision we can with the information available.

To say the degree is worthless is misleading. True, some degrees open more doors than others, but if a person expects to be hired based on a degree, then they’re not going to working for me, and their perception that their degree is worthless will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That said, don’t believe anything an HR recruiter tells you.