Replies

The lie that started this thread was "Marx gets Vatican Thumbs Up." No one is disputing that some Catholics are thoroughly lousy exemplars of Catholic thought and teaching. Teddy the Hutt and Stretch are fine examples of such Catholic lay folks. But, again, the headline wasn't, "Some Catholic Laity Like Socialism." So, silly me, I was arguing against that charge that was actually made and not against some other charge that was not made until now. It is about the initial lie that I claim to have taken the field, not about anything else. Not only does "the Vatican" take a very dim view of Marx, but an article's being printed in L'Osservatore Romano is a lousy reason for taking it as in any way representative of Catholic thought. Even the occasional idiot bishop, or a whole gaggle of idiot bishops who don't get what "subsidiarity" means and requires do not constitute the Vatican's giving Marx a Thumbs Up. When, and only when, it is conceded that the original headline and article are false, whether intentionally or mistakenly, then I will entertain some other topics. Until then, well I think I'll enjoy this field that some Catholic haters challenged us on and were defeated.

Who allows anyone to present themselves as acceptable practicing Catholic? NONE of these lay or standing have had their practices tossed out as being against the Church.

The claim can be made until the sun turns black that Marx is an unacceptable political doctrine, but I can point to nation after nation around this globe that does indeed practice varying degrees of Marxism.

What from our independence that separates US from all other nations is the stated acknowledgment that the 'rights' of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness come from the Creator. But that is not good enough for the small minds of man because they crave power and authority in establishing themselves as 'gods' not only over these rights but over all rights.

I believe with all my being that every individual has the God given right to choose what path they will follow. But as it is Written the deceiver was filled with the pride of his own intellect and beauty he rebelled and decided he would be God. Welll we are nigh down that path of where all souls that choose to 'see' the kingdom of God (John 3) have passed through this flesh age.

Back when the Heavenly Father established His government recorded in the Judges we are told that the Heavenly Father told Gideon to cull down his army to 300 for the purpose of the people knowing WHO gave them the victory.

Paul says that what happened to them is written for our admonition as to what would be again to bring about the end of this age.

The majority has never ever stayed very long on the side of 'right'. IT is recorded. I call them as I encounter the facts and I know from personal experience it is NOT a lie to state there are Marxist practicing a 'social gospel' right smack in the middle of that church.

But lest you think I believe for an instant this church is alone in whitewashing Marxist ideology as part of their religious doctrine, NOT SO. I came from a majority of Baptist of some form or other, and the majority of them were first born and bred democrat and they HATE with all the 'red' blood passion everything Republican/Conservative, and notions the Ten Commandments are still in effect.

There is never a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative coming out of Rome but the posters believe it is their 'work' to bitterly complain about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.

Christ warned the first sign of His return was deception, MASS deception and my friend it is gone viral around this globe. And neither you nor I nor your church is going to stamp out that deception.

>>There is never a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative coming out of Rome but the posters believe it is their ‘work’ to bitterly complain about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.<<

You haven’t spent much time over at the Religion Forum have you?

There are CONSTANTLY articles posted about what is coming out of the Vatican. Are you saying that you want Catholics to post articles that you conceive to be “negative coming out of Rome”?

Did you think that perhaps we don’t see it as negative?
We actually read what comes from the Vatican (Rome is a city) and not what the MSM writes about it. So instead of posting all the “negative” things, we spend our time saying, “Have you gone to the source and actually read it or do you believe Anti-Christian Reuters about this?”

I swear, if quotes from the Pope were given the same scrutiny as those from GWB or Ronald Reagan, we would have time to actually discuss with you. But the Pope can say “It’s a nice day”, AP writes Pope says “Pope says protestants are damned to hell.” and FReepers take it as gospel.

Now if you want to say that it’s my way of “bitterly complaining about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.” I’m going to tell you that when we complained about the lies and distortions of the words of GWB, the mainstream media said the same.

But hey, if you want to dislike the Vatican more than the Mainstream Media’s distortions and blame it on the Catholics, that is your right.

I'm not sure I understand your post, but what I THINK I understand earns my general agreement.

But I'm STILL not sure how it connects to the lie on which this thread is based.

This is the first thing I don't get:

Who allows anyone to present themselves as acceptable practicing Catholic? NONE of these lay or standing have had their practices tossed out as being against the Church.

The view Protestants have of the Church starts with the assumption that there is a kind of Secret Police which knows what everyone is thinking and doing and which immediately and effectively suppresses what it doesn't like.

This is, of course, ridiculous. Five minutes of reasonably careful thought about a vaguely autocratic polity with a billion members (give or take) would lead to the conclusion which accords with the facts: The Catholic Church is one of the most disorganized bodies in human history. That is has survived at all is, to me, a strong indication of God's favor. Certainly we cannot credit the bozos in charge.

Old joke #1: "I don't believe in organized religion, I'm a Catholic."
Old joke #1: Somebody asked Pope John XXIII, "How many people work in the Vatican?"
The Pope answered, "About half of them."

Also, whether by design or indolence I don't know, But the Catholic Church takes to heart the plea of the gardener to spare the tree another year, and tries to dig around it and supply it with manure (something the Church has in abundance) in hopes that maybe one day it might bear good fruit.

The claim can be made until the sun turns black that Marx is an unacceptable political doctrine, but I can point to nation after nation around this globe that does indeed practice varying degrees of Marxism.

Including our nation. O'ROurke's line about Socialism being Communism by the drink is on the money. And what with "liberation theology" in South America Various sorts of Marxism frequently make assaults even on the Vatican. But then God raises up guys like J2P2.

What from our independence that separates US from all other nations is the stated acknowledgment that the 'rights' of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness come from the Creator. But that is not good enough for the small minds of man because they crave power and authority in establishing themselves as 'gods' not only over these rights but over all rights.

10-4

I believe with all my being that every individual has the God given right to choose what path they will follow. But as it is Written the deceiver was filled with the pride of his own intellect and beauty he rebelled and decided he would be God. Welll we are nigh down that path of where all souls that choose to 'see' the kingdom of God (John 3) have passed through this flesh age.

"Age" talk makes me anxious. There seem to be so many different ways of describing the time between the Cross and the Kingdom.

Back when the Heavenly Father established His government recorded in the Judges we are told that the Heavenly Father told Gideon to cull down his army to 300 for the purpose of the people knowing WHO gave them the victory.
Paul says that what happened to them is written for our admonition as to what would be again to bring about the end of this age. The majority has never ever stayed very long on the side of 'right'. IT is recorded. I call them as I encounter the facts and I know from personal experience it is NOT a lie to state there are Marxist practicing a 'social gospel' right smack in the middle of that church.

You're claiming personal experience of the Vatican? You're discounting J2P2's support of "solidarity in Poland? You're ignoring the many quotes about subsidiarity presented on this thread? Subsidiarity is the notion which stabs central-government socialism in the heart.

I WILL grant that a frightening number of US Bishops misunderestimate the importance of subsidiarity. But as a sister lay Dominican reminded my, ANYONE can, and sometimes should offer "fraternal correction" to any member of the Church. The Patroness of the Lay Dominicans is St. Catherine of Siena who was not the least bit reserved in jerking not around only her confessor but the Pope himself. She was canonized not in spite of but largely because of this.

This paying of great respect to lay people who sass their ecclesiastical "superiors" is something many Protestants fail to appreciate.

But lest you think I believe for an instant this church is alone in whitewashing Marxist ideology as part of their religious doctrine, NOT SO. I came from a majority of Baptist of some form or other, and the majority of them were first born and bred democrat and they HATE with all the 'red' blood passion everything Republican/Conservative, and notions the Ten Commandments are still in effect.

I am a refugee from the Episcopal Church. Need I say more?

There is never a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative coming out of Rome but the posters believe it is their 'work' to bitterly complain about all the anti-Catholic bigotry, lies, and etc., etc.

There is RARELY a thread posted here that has anything appearing negative [allegedly] coming out Rome that does not in fact contain lies, misstatements, misunderstandings, and false representations about our faith and practice. The eagerness of Protestants whom I have never met to tell me what I Believe, think, feel, and do is remarkable.

Christ warned the first sign of His return was deception, MASS deception and my friend it is gone viral around this globe. And neither you nor I nor your church is going to stamp out that deception.

So I should just shut up while people tell me that my brothers and sisters and I believe, think, feel, and do things I know we neither think, feel, nor do? I believe the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church which is the Body of Christ. I believe that God keeps His promise, about the nature of which we probably disagree.

In general, though, I note that your post to which I am responding STILL does not concede that the post on which this thread is built is a lie. An assertion is made about "the Vatican" and the evidence adduced to support the assertion is incompetent to do so.

SO, once again, an assault is started with a false claim and then the follow-up arguments try to take the contention elsewhere. I would like to suggest that if our Protestant brothers and sisters want to discuss in a serious way what they perceive to be the errors and failings of our Church they might consider not starting with offensive and false characterizations.