Posted on 10/06/2009 5:52:10 AM PDT by kindred
Agnostic. I have nothing personal against Catholics, just strong disagreements that go beyond my objections to theism and christianity in general.
what an amazing amount of misunderstanding, intentional or not, of His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church....
apparently, the church history stops at or around Christ ascending back to heaven, then picks up again around the time of luther...
apparently the apostles who appointed their successors and who had access to the original scriptures, teachings and sacred traditions of the church in the first few centuries, are no match for some ‘scripture alone’ hotshot in 2009.
Our Lord did not assign sheep to become shepherds.
That’s essentially what happens when individuals cliam authority.
St. Paul wrote that “we are the body of Christ, member for member”. This “Body of Christ” is made up of the living members who bear the name Christian and live in the world giving to the world that sign of Christian belief and life.
Is a living body without a head? If there is a visible body of Christian believers, there must be a head to that body.
The Sacred Scriptures have many references to the “rod”. The “rod” always indicates authority/discipline.
Even the early Christians had bishops and elders, recognized as authority.
Jesus had his Apostles, but He was their “head”—their chief Shepherd. When He ascended into heaven, He left the church in their care—a grave responsibility.
That’s why the Pope is called the “servant of the servants”.
That the Catholic Church has a visible head over its visible body in the world until the Lord comes again, should come as no surprise, but rather be seen as in accord with God’s plan.
In a completely different universe than you do ..
DJP I.F.
http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=5014 Let go of the tradition and trust the Word! what more is there to be said! The Bible states it's as clear as a bell. but they can't let go of Traditions.. As I know quite well by experience of love ones
I was thinking of this hymn today:
How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word!
What more can He say than to you He hath said,
You, who unto Jesus for refuge have fled?
In every condition, in sickness, in health;
In poverty’s vale, or abounding in wealth;
At home and abroad, on the land, on the sea,
As thy days may demand, shall thy strength ever be.
Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,
For I am thy God and will still give thee aid;
I’ll strengthen and help thee, and cause thee to stand
Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand.
When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of woe shall not thee overflow;
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.
When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.
Even down to old age all My people shall prove
My sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love;
And when hoary hairs shall their temples adorn,
Like lambs they shall still in My bosom be borne.
The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose,
I will not, I will not desert to its foes;
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.
No, not really, we’re just two divergent paths following the Master.
When christ was here that was all He did was to say let go of your man made views of Almighty God and His Christ and let the holy Scripture be your teacher. Mark 7 Matt 15 choose
God's infallible Word
Human Traditions and fables.
That is one of my all time favorite hymns!!
What a reasoned, pleasant reply - I commend you. I was afraid I would get hate comments.
On Mary - of course she is blessed. My point was that God paid no attention to the status of a person - status, wealth, the opinions and honors of man hold no value to God. I was talking about the fact that he brought Jesus to life in a manger - not a castle - why? Mary was a simple woman - not one of wealth and status. All the apostles were simple people. Don’t you see the emphasis the catholic church puts on appearances, wealth, lavish clothing?
My point is that God does not look at the things man looks at. God could have had Jesus born to a King, into an esteemed family - but no, he chose based on the heart of a person. The trappings displayed in the Catholic church honor the men rather than God, provide esteem and status to the believers based on the lavishness rather than on God who always ignored such.
God did not tell Peter to establish a man to whom people gave the utmost power of the church. God established the church, stated that men should be chosen as elders based on their having one wife and raising their children to be christians and that christians were to follow the direction of these elders. Even the preachers answer to the designated elders.
Also we were told not to add to or take from the Word. Why? Because adding to or taking from the Word changes the Word and the will of God. How can you be sure the Word inspired in the first century be kept unchanged so that men in the later centuries would have access to God’s inspired Word. Tell man not to add to or take from the scripture.
Yet, man with his need to be identified with the elite, status, etc. looks for lavishness in church, chooses to ignore God’s direction and change the instructions. No where did God tell us to pray to anyone other than Him through Christ.
I know you love your church, I know you love God - same as I do. I am just pointing out that a pope is not found in the Bible or instruction to set up a pope. Also saints, praying to saints, all of these are man’s additions.
If a church does not match the instructions laid out in the Bible - that is a warning sign that something has been changed.
On abortion - what a wonderful way to come together even over differences and I thoroughly love the catholic church for standing up and taking a stand on this issue. That is what I admire about the catholic church - their stand on moral issues - not the pompous pagentry, not the control over the people, not the establishment of procedures preventing the people from speaking to God directly for forgiveness - but the simple standing up for what God gave as the ten commandments - thou shalt not kill.
I love Scripture because is puts away pride. It humbles those that study it. And as a result, it makes you free (Jn 8:31-32). You can either ignore it (at your own peril), or study it, knowing that it is inspired by God to communicate to you.
The word “trinity” isn’t in the Bible either, but the concept of a triune God certainly is. Likewise, the concept of “Scripture Alone” is certainly there, unless of course you trust men to start making up the rules. There is far too much Scripture that speaks to this without have to verbalize the words “Scripture alone”. Like all of Psalm 119 for starters.
Now getting back to Mary: there isn’t even the CONCEPT of (1) the need to worship Mary in the Bible, nor (2) any supposed power that she has today in any type of intercession.
1- Jesus dealt with this early.
Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
2- Mary recognized her need for a Saviour (Lk 1:46-49).
3- Mary had children after Jesus was born (Mt 13:54-56).
Joseph was told to take Mary home as his wife (Mt 1:19-20), which he did, and had normal sexual relations with her after the Lord was born (Mt 1:24-25).
4- If Mary could do ANYTHING for a Christian, I would expect it to be somewhere in God’s Word. Not there.
5- By the way: what was Jesus’ mission?
There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5).
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (Jn 14:6).
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12).
So where does a venerated Mary fit? No where.
If we hold that the Word of God is infallible and therefore, absolutely reliable, and relevent as the only universal truth to all peoples of all ages: Why rely on anything from sinful man?
Now check the history of the RCC.
It’s riddled with bad doctrine, its persecution of the real church (Novations, Montanist, Donatists, Priscillians, Waldenses, Catheri, Anabaptists....and many more)... all because they wanted to have the Bible in there own language, and memorize it in order to apply it to their lives. Even Napolean made an observation on that. Inquisition? Crusades? Real nice. Exactly opposite of what the church is called to do. We’re still paying for that bit of genius. Indulgences? Purgatory? Nice. Not biblical.
Why did it all happen? Because the RCC walked away from the Bible. And here’s the rub: the Bible doesn’t allow for the state structure, so there’s no way they could have God in authority. There’s too much money and power to be had.
The Bible says that the very words of God are more sure than the audible voice of God (2 Pe 1:16-21, compared with Mt 17:1-9). This is a critical point. All “experiences” are to be judged by an infallible standard which is greater than any experience. Remember, Peter was at the transfiguration, and actually heard God’s voice; making the point that sinful man can ill-afford to adopt anything other than Scripture on matters concerning God’s revelation to man.
Theotokos? Never heard of him. Not a lot of veneration going on there. Orthodox means fundamental (the basics). It doesn’t mean Greek Orthodox (proper noun- capitalization).
Words mean stuff.
In Christ,
Salva
Pride and humility for most is just a reversible coat that one wears outside.
The Lord most certainly calls sheep to be shephards. The disciples were the first, and it continued outward.
1 - Re-read Titus and 1-2 Timothy. That will clear that up. There is no one “claiming authority”. It is responding to a supernatural call. Claiming authority didn’t happen until the Donatist schism— and the start of the RCC. The RCC has an illustrious history of claiming authority, and I’ll give them full credit for it.
2- Elders and Bishops. Do a word search in the N.T. for elder, bishop, and pastor (shepherd): Hint: they are all the same thing; a 3-in-1 role that pastors perform. Compare that to the pastoral epistles, and you will see them used interchangeably. If it’s too much, let me know and I’ll send you a simple lesson plan.
3 - There is no reference to “rod” in any of the doctrinal N.T. books for the church age. Why? Because Christ fulfilled the authority. You will see it in Revelation, but that is an entirely different dispensation (after chapter 3).
3 - Christ is the head of the church— that postion is taken, and has never been vacated.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
4 - And this is the foundation of the church that Paul was talking about as the Body of Christ. This time, he uses a building as the metaphor-
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
He ascended to heaven, and he still directs the church through the Holy Spirit— He didn’t vacate being the head of the church. How does one make a HUGE extrapolation that there needs to be one physical head of the church, when there is no Scripture to back that up? Wow. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would take care of the direction of the church (Jn 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7).
This is fundamental Christianity, an abyss between Christians and Catholics.
If I were to recommend a easy, easy self pace workbook to learn the entire Bible in about 2 weeks: Search for the Truth, by Dr Jeff Adams. It even teaches you biblical interpretation, so that you can do it correctly. Your hermaneutic is wrong. It’s MUCH EASIER than what you are doing.
In Christ,
Salva
I am satisfied with what I have learned from the Early Church Fathers, and the learned men of the Catholic Church, men of faith.
I don’t intend to go back;
I believe that all Catholics who hear the call of the divine Shepherd have a “supernatural calling”.
Of course He directs the Church through the Holy Spirit.
I am blessed to be Catholic and will always thank God that I am.
“I cannot for a moment
fall out of the Everlasting Arms
I am in the Heart of God
I am on my way to Glory”
-—an Irish prayer
ROE
Absolutely true. All the more reason to constantly check our hearts and theology to see where it lines up with the only infallible standard....Scripture.
Woe be to us when we line ourselves up with a denomination, rather than the Bible.
Aside from the issue of authority (the Bible or sinful man), I think you are making biblical interpretation harder than it is.
1. INTERPRETATION and DOCTRINE. If I took any other author out of context, it would be disrespecting the author and the original message. The same with the Bible. God meant to be understood. It’s not a cook book.
Ironically, Jesus warns the disciples about bad doctrine coming from religious men in Mt 16:11-12; immediately before asking the disciples who they thought He was.
2. PETER THE ROCK. Read Matthew 16:13-19 again. It doesn’t have “his” or “my”, or any other personal pronoun. Again, even without knowing the Greek, the English meaning is unmistakable; unless you willfully ignore it.
Here’s what happens with this passage is taken out of context:
“We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation” Pope Pius IX, 1854.
Not biblical. Sorry. The Bible never points to any man-made institution for salvation, particularly 325 years after the Resurrection. The New Testament always points to the heart of man, and his response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4).
3. KEYS TO THE KINGDOM/BINDING AND LOOSING. What are the keys to the kingdom? That sounds pretty important to me. The only other mention of “keys” in the NT is Rev 1:18. I’d look that one up.
Binding and loosing was given corporately to all the disciples: Mt 18:18 and John 20:23. In other words, the disciples (and even Christians today) have legitimate authority to say whether a person is saved or not, based on a person’s response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Peter explained that in Acts 15, adding nothing to himself more than what Scripture states.
In its application— Christians can legitimately say a person is going to hell unless they accept Jesus Christ, the eternal Son, as Lord and Saviour; asking Him to forgive all sins and save them. I don’t need the Pope or anyone else to issue a ruling on it. The Scripture is clear, and the gospel is easily understood (1 Cor 15:1-4). That does NOT mean I, or any Pope can forgive sins or pronounce final judgment (although popes have made careers out of it)...see Rev 1:18.
4. MARY. Mary was blessed, no doubt. And those words still stand, for sure. I’m blessed too. So are all Christians that have placed their trust in Christ alone for their salvation.
-—>John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
God chose Mary for a special role. She performed it. That’s it. There is no scriptural support for anything else; other than what man has added from his own emotional, or evil reasoning. God makes a stinging warning about adding to His Word (Rev 22:18-19).
5. CONCLUSION. There is no room for Mary, Pope, dead saint, or any other creature for salvation of spiritual help/intercession.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
WORD (BIBLE) = Truth
Why base any spiritual judgment outside of Scripture? It doesn’t make sense, and seems wholly unwise given the constant scriptural reminders of the condition of man, and the repetition throughout the Bible to know God’s Word, obey it, and exalt the Word of God above all things.
In Christ alone,
Salva
I do not doubt your sincerity, nor that of most Catholics.
But I point out, by your own admission, you have placed your eternal security in three places that have no biblical support. That’s a dangerous place to be. When I lived in Egypt, I found Muslims to be the most sincere people in the world— but it won’t do them any good because their faith has no scriptural authority. Your sources—
(1) the Early Church Fathers: a great source of how heresy was allowed in, by substituting Scripture with man’s interpretation, rather than comparing Scripture with Scripture (1 Cor 2:13-14) to get spiritual discernment. For that, Origen today is remembered as the Father of Heresy.
(2) learned men: (certainly God raises up gifted men to teach, but they should never be the source of our trust, becasuse they are sinners too (Romans 3:23). Luther was a great teacher who compared what he was teaching, to Scripture— and the Reformation followed in 1517.
(3) your Catholic experience: (Peter went to great lengths to explain all “experiences” must be filtered by the Bible 2 Pe 1:17-21)— the only infallible standard we have.
I say all that, to say this— the Irish poem is lovely; but there isn’t anything of authority attached to it. It is an arbitrary, emotional proclamation that feels good. If we mortal men make spiritual judgments, it would seem to me we would include the authority and infallible standard we have to make such judgments: Scripture.
How do you know you can’t fall out of God’s arms? For that matter, what states that you are in God’s arms in the first place? The pope? I already debunked Matt 16:13-19, for which he derives all authority for the past 1700 years; of which, no one can give me a reasoned scriptural response; other than taking a passage out of context. No one.
This passage should cause all of us to drop to our face, and ask God to show us where are hearts are, and what we are ultimately trusting in:
-—> Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
But if you believe your eternity is secure in Mary, church membership, the pope, tradition, Vatican II, or a singing angel in your living room:
I say all these things out of love, and for your profit.
In Christ,
Salva
There is no other answer I can offer to all you have written in an effort to persuade me.
I am no theologian, I don’t place all my faith in hermeneutics, I have no desire to be an apologist because God has not given me that gift. I don’t necessarily study the Sacred Scriptures—rather I read them and meditate upon them daily—they are the basis for my prayer life.
I believe that there are these three that remain—faith hope and love, and that the greatest of these is love.
I know that I am loved by Jesus the Lord because He created me and wishes me to return to Him. I know that if, (with the grace He gives to me) I love Him with my whole heart and my whole mind and my whole soul, He will then keep me in his care as a mother hen takes her chicks under her wing—He tells us so.
I have no more to say and nothing else that I want to respond to.
May God be ever praised.
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