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To: SteveH
". Unfortunately I did not get any citations from you so I’m not sure that the answers you gave are very useful, at least to me. Thanks anyway."

I don't think I quite understand what you're asking with respect to citations and Obama's birth records. I don't know if you're looking from some prior-case precedent where a military service member claimed an affirmative defense based on the ineligibility of the President to issue lawful order. If so, I'm not aware of any exiting case law with those specific circumstances.

The closest you'll find are the countless number of cases - many in the last 8 years - in which service members have refused orders based claims such as "this war isn't a legal war". Those all ended poorly for the accused. And, although some have motioned for the testimony of members of the Executive Branch - I believe including the SecDef, VP and President, none of those motions were ever granted.

One of the many prominent cases that comes to mind is that of a young marine reservist named Funk. He too attempted the affirmative defense of "I didn't show up because this is an unjust war". It went nowhere. He was sentenced to 6 months confinement and a BCD, which is about the average outcome for these kinds of cases. And no, the President, the SecDef, SecNav or any other officer or civilian authority has been forced to testify to the legality of the war, although many a defendant has tried.

In any court of law, affirmative defenses have to meet certain guidelines - to long to go into here - but, an "ineligible President" argument doesn't fall into one of those categories as an allowable affirmative defense. It's tough to win any motions for discovery if the trial judge isn't buying the premise of your defense. And to date, none of those cases has been overturned on appeal because the bench didn't indulge such a defense.

Lastly, if you want some guidance with respect to what constitutes an "official record or document" you can refer to the Federal Rules for Civil Procedure, Rule 44 (you can google it, I'm sure that there's plenty of sources for it). In that rule, it's clear that a "Certification of Live Birth" - assuming one actually exists for Obama - would clearly meet the required standard for "Proving an Official Record". I don't believe that direct testimony or an affidavit would even be required (as in something from Dr. Fukino), so long as the appropriate signature and a seal were embossed on the document in question.

I hope this helps to further clarify your question.

641 posted on 08/31/2009 8:29:00 PM PDT by OldDeckHand (No Socialized Medicine, No Way, No How, No Time)
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To: OldDeckHand

If Obama submited a COLB as evidence the defense would have a right to discovery that may lead to admissible evidence to counter the document. Every thing would be open as to his citizenship and NBC status IMO.


644 posted on 08/31/2009 8:54:16 PM PDT by rolling_stone (no more bailouts, the taxpayers are out of money!)
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