Posted on 07/31/2009 3:00:53 PM PDT by ckilmer
But they don’t. It costs between $12,500 to $22,500 to convert a gasoline-powered car to natural gas in an autoshop. That old gas hog just can’t be greened up for cheap. Now. But it could be.
Natural gas conversions don’t not have to cost that much: there is no technological problem driving what it truly needs to cost for auto mechanics to make a living at it. The true cost is only a few hundred dollars in parts and labor. The reason for this incredible difference is exceedingly interesting, as Robert Rapier notes in a well researched piece over at The Oil Drum on the feasibility of switching from Gasoline to Natural Gas.
Not only is the reason interesting, but embedded in the reason is the simple way to solve it. Then converting cars to Natural Gas could cost what it actually costs; just a few hundred dollars - an hour’s work; a few parts.
We could cut our very hoggy national carbon footprint by switching to natural gas which we now have an abundant supply of if these new natural gas reserve numbers are even remotely accurate. So we could drive less hoggy on somewhat cleaner fuel. And - (supposedly) in the carpool lane
The VP of The Auto Channel claims that this cost is unnecessary:
* » See also: AT&T to Spend $565 Million on Compressed Natural Gas Vehicles / Hybrids Next 10 Years * » Get Gas 2.0 by RSS or sign up by email.
CNG conversion costs are only high because of an old EPA licensing requirement, says Marc Raush:
“For an individual (or shop) to be licensed to do a conversion, the person must pay $10,000 per year, per engine type, per year of manufacture. So that if a conversion shop wanted to do conversions in 2009 for Camrys for the years 1995 to 2005, the shop owner would have to pay the government $100,000 in licensing fees. “
“Then, if he wanted to do conversions on the same models in 2010, he would have to pay the $100,000 again, even though they are the exact same models and engines that he has been licensed on already. And if there is more than one engine involved, i.e., a 6-cylinder and 8-cylinder, the cost would double.”
“Therefore, if a shop owner wanted to do 10 model years of Camrys and Corollas and Celicas, and well as Honda Accords and Civics, unless there were common engines being used in these five models the licensing cost (for just one engine per) would be a half million dollars, which would have to be paid again in 2010.“ Licensing fees of a few million dollars every year would certainly dissuade most shops from going into the conversion business!
“The cost of the conversion kits are actually relatively inexpensive. If there was a sensible licensing fee (or no fee) the cost for the work could be just a few hundred dollars.” “These fees are, needless to say, ridiculous and are only there to ensure that many don’t get done (thanks to the gasoline lobby).”
The nay-sayers will claim that there’s another reason many don’t get done. Those who typically poo-poo the possibility of the status quo ever changing say there’s not enough trained CNG conversion mechanics.
But how many trained auto mechanics were there when we switched from horses to horsepower? Nada. But, the demand for them created them in due time. I’ll bet there’s no shortage of mechanics that would be willing to learn conversion if it wasn’t a prohibitively expensive line of work to get into.
Anyone inclined to train for this new green - but grimy - job could contact the first community colleges teaching CNG conversions in Rio Hondo and Yuba College in California. Or the University of West Virginia; which has a great automotive program (including these conversions) that they’ve “syndicated” to other colleges around the country. There’s a good chance that this ridiculous licensing requirement could be overturned by a more proactive congress than we’ve had in some time.
That’s because this is very low hanging fruit in the fight to lower carbon and be energy independent - and without spending a dime. This is exactly what’s on the almost impossible yet Must Do List for this congress - so you could do something about this:
You could pick up the phone and get rid of this licensing fee. It’s pretty simple to tell congress what needs to be done; even if you think you don’t know who to call.
The congress switchboard at (202) 224 3121 can connect you with your Senator if you know your state, and if you give your zip code; they’ll know who your Representative in the House is.Their staffers have to note what your call is about. (You might mention that even Iran can cheaply convert a quarter million vehicles to run on CNG.)
Right now is a good time too, since a few days ago congress added incentives for natural gas vehicle conversions in one of the few bipartisan votes in the last 30 years (because this benefits the fossil industry - natural gas is tied to oil - while still reducing the carbon footprint of fossil fuel.)
And these are great incentives for those who can use tax breaks, but that assumes you have a job that’s paying enough to owe taxes. So many of us don’t, now.
These incentives won’t be as much help to the dirt poor, who have no tax credits. A housemaid who has to drive 30 rural miles to a part time Motel 6 job would just not be able to afford to convert her gas hog, even with the new tax credits passed.
Good article. First address the obvious.
Converting to natural gas makes sense. Should make the greens happy, costs less than gasoline, would accomplish a significant reduction in the dependence on imported oil. Why aren’t we doing it?
Fascinating. I never heard of these regulations. And I’m sure there are tens of thousands of other useless regulations I haven’t heard of, either.
I don’t know how helpful these conversions would be, but unless I’m missing something, the market should decide.
Government sticking its nose where it doesn’t belong. Again.
95% of the Imperial Federal Government is illegal.
No thanks - It's a terrible idea.
What about distribution and being able to get it in your car anywhere you need it?
Let's just drill here, drill now and pay less.
Why would the EPA be against converting to natural gas. They should be pushing this cleaner burning (and cheaper) fuel.
Lord it sucks when the truth gets involved.
Drill here drill now!!!
**Converting** a gasoline *car* [not just an engine; a naked engine isn’t such the big deal] to NG is not especially trivial when you consider the req’ments for a tank, proper mounting of same, making sure the valve ass’y is guarded from trunk-junk smashing into it, a line to the engine, proper dressing & temp insulation of same, and the implications of carbueration vs fuel injection, all under the mgmt of a computer. There’s not much question in my mind that this isn’t something to be done by a shade tree mechanic. No doubt there are taxation issues and all that type of darkish stuff, but clearly, some goodly number of car-bombs would result from such conversions carried out haphazardly.
OTOH, *building a car from the beginning* for NG *IS* relatively trivial. *Building a car from the beginning* that can be freely switched back and forth betw gasoline and NG is less trivial. I could be wrong and I’d welcome the correction if I am, but such an animal would almost have to be carbuerated, and I’m not sure if there are a lot of carb’ed cars being produced these days.
And what happens to those who heat their homes with natural gas? The price is on a steep rise. After everybody starts using it in their cars, it will out of sight.
“Propane is a better idea. The fuel density is almost as high as gasoline and less pressure equipment.
The main and just about only problem w/propane is that it’s heavier than air and tends to accumulate in low spots. That’s one of the reasons why it is hated for use as a fuel on boats....leaks over long periods of time can accum in the bilge and create a boom boom.
Don’t know how much trouble it is to get existing injectors to work OK with the natural gas. A gas will pass more easily through them than a liquid. They are also designed to contain higher pressures than carburetor fuel feed systems are. But the central computer would need to be changed to one that recognizes the new fuel and its characteristics, and that’s well over $200 right there.
The 3000 PSI tank for CNG would concern me more. I would use diesel for a boat. It takes as much energy to compress CNG into a tank as a tank can store. You loose 50% of the fuel just compressing it. It can make sense for a stationary engine though.
“It costs between $12,500 to $22,500 to convert a gasoline-powered car to natural gas in an autoshop”
Bull shiite. I’ve helped convert three cars in the last two years. It cost no more than $602.00, which included the tank. Average was about $350.00.
We got an estimate from Alan Vigil Ford, here in Ga. to do it, and it was $1250.00.
Someone is taking the rules way out of proportion, unless they are brand new rules.
“But the central computer would need to be changed to one that recognizes the new fuel and its characteristics, and that’s well over $200 right there.”
I’d suspect that could be accomplished with an EPROM (eg; firmware) change which wouldn’t be the biggest of deals, though these units aren’t exactly made to be screwed around with. I have no idea whether the NG is fed to the fuel injection manifold as a liquid or a gas, and if a liquid, whether some evaporator in the form of a small external tank is req’d. None of the many steps req’d are particularly difficult in and of themselves, but the totality is a lot of individual steps. And each of them is, I’m sure, quite well known, but I still believe that the entire process of taking a car built for gasoline and converting it for NG from beginning to end is non-trivial.
Google the Marcellus shale formation and how much drilling is going on right now. As for filling your natural gas fueled car, there are home compressors that look like wall hung vacuum cleaners that will do the job.
Any previous administration or congress could have drastically reduced our oil consumption by enabling the conversion or production of natural gas/gasoline multifuel engined cars.
“The 3000 PSI tank for CNG would concern me more.”
Understandable, though I have seen videos of those tanks withstanding M16 rounds and 75 mph collision-equivalents. Where there is a small breach, the gas streaming out is, IIRC, outside the band of its explosive range right at the skin of the tank, though a trunkful could be a problem.
Also, I read somewhere that CNG (compressed NG) is a different animal than LNG (liquified NG) and the difference is the degree pressurization of the fuel.
Is conversion of a gasoline engine to run on LPG vastly different from kits used to make these engines run on CNG?
Because the kits for the former aren’t $12,000+ but much cheaper than that, from what I’ve known.
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