Posted on 05/16/2009 11:56:08 AM PDT by Maelstorm
MOSCOW (AP) - Riot police violently broke up several gay rights demonstrations in Moscow on Saturday, hauling away scores of protesters hours before the Russian capital hosted a major international pop music competition.
City officials had warned they would not tolerate marches or rallies supporting the rights of gays and lesbians. Activists had targeted Moscow, which was holding the finals of the Eurovision song contest on Saturday, to press their claims that Russia officially sanctions homophobia.
Police seized gay rights protesters as well as some members of religious and nationalist groups that staged counter-demonstrations. They also took away gay rights activists for simply talking to reporters, and ripped the bra and shirt off one female protester.
Moscow police spokesman Anatoly Listovetsky said 40 people were detained, although media reports said up to 80 had been seized.
Among those detained were British activist Peter Tatchell and American activist Andy Thayer of Chicago, co-founder of the Gay Liberation Network.
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
You may not have heard all the conversation that ended with “go to war with Russia.” The context was that someone said that Russia, or any other country, should not treat peaceful protesters that way, and my point was that we can’t tell Russia, nor any other country, what to do. Not a straw man at all, just a “pick the hill you die on” comment.
Some people are just fed up. You can only be outraged for so long before you just want all the attacks on yourself and your culture to end. Everyone behaves badly sometimes, and it’s usually when they’re fed up — or alcohol is involved. And cheering for something bad that you would never do yourself can be an outlet for the pressure we’re all under right now.
You don’t think Miss CA was beaten up? It depends on what’s worse, a bruise and a black eye or losing something you have worked your entire life to attain. Personally, I would prefer the bruises if my life’s work would be a complete success.
So lighten up. That’s a high horse you’re on, and maybe the letdown isn’t so bad for you.
>>>The context was that someone said that Russia, or any other country, should not treat peaceful protesters that way, and my point was that we can’t tell Russia, nor any other country, what to do. Not a straw man at all, just a “pick the hill you die on” comment.
No. The issue isn’t what the Russians do in their own land. It’s OUR reaction to it. Life sometimes gives pop quizzes. You and the rest on this thread got to choose between ethical and political principles of liberty, and hate for homosexuals. You failed the test.
As far as I can tell these weren’t destructive and violent rioters like the WTO demonstrators. Anybody applauding the beatdown of otherwise peaceful people for simply talking to reporters makes a lie of any claim to “conservative values”. You sided with the police-state. So if valuing free speech in lands that lack it is riding a high horse, then giddyup.
The homosexual movement in Russia has been credibly linked to some bad actors working to destabilize the country.
Think a ‘Communist Pride’ rally would have gone over in the US circa 1950? How about a Jihadapalooza protest in NYC on the anniversary of 9/11? I’m no big fan of the Russkies or Putin, but they’re just keeping their thumb on their own ‘queer’ little brand of domestic terrorist.
Teaching history is a fair piece from an institutional belief in God. In Russia, the state grants rights, not God.
But most of the country applauded the beatings (myself included). Wrong? I don't think so. There is such a thing as "fighting words" that in a normal, healthy, society will get you your ass kicked if you act out in a way offensive to the general norms of society.
Defending your culture, directly yourself, or by proxy with the police, is a "conservative value". Maybe the highest conservative value.
All you are hearing on this thread is the sound of support for a push back against homo activists. IMO long overdue. And if that means a few heads get cracked, well, as the song says,"don't spit into the wind. Don't pull on Superman's cape".
Do not be so bold as to tell me what I meant by what I said. You inserted yourself in a conversation and promptly misunderstood the point and made judgments based on that misunderstanding.
Again, off your high horse, sir or madam. Do not answer, for I do not care what change agents have to say, and you will be speaking to a deaf ear.
Just out of curiosity, roughly speaking where do you draw this line between protecting your culture and free speech?
What if the group in Moscow simply wanted to hold up signs saying "No homophobia" and "End discrimination against homosexuals"? No orgies, no dancing nude men, no lewd acts...just sending a message that gays deserve to be treated with basic respect in society.
Should a society be able to legitimately shut down this protest using government force?
So not ony homosexual acts themselves need to be prohibited by the government, but also advocacy for gay political rights or social acceptance for gays?
What other messages or ideas need to be censored in society? And who decides which messages are sufficiently poisonous to call for banning?
There is no line between protecting the culture and free speech. The problem lies with the defining down of free speech. We're told that parading naked and publishing every kind of depravity is free speech, but some of us do not agree that smut is Constitutional free speech.
If homosexual activists want respect, then they should act respectably. That includes keeping their private business to themselves. This is such a simple concept that it boggles my mind that no one seems to understand it. Figuratively waving one's genitals in public and insisting that everyone accept it is not respectable, and it is obviously not winning any converts. Duh.
Our society does not shut down this sort of thing, and what other societies do, again, is not under our control.
This is a bit of a leap past disapproval. I don't think anyone is advocating outlawing homosexuality.
What about the rights of people who find homosexual behavior repugnant and a sin? Why must their faces be rubbed in something that they abhor? What about their "social rights?" Would you have the government force them to attend homosexual pride parades and include a certain number of homosexual people among their friends? Would you force heterosexuals to "like" them? How would these new laws be enforced? How many enemies do you really want to make for the otherwise fine people who happen to be homosexual?
Homosexual activists are asking for legislated friendliness toward homosexuals. Now that's what I would call a violation of rights.
Oh sorry. Plain old, non-hyphenated Americans have no rights these days.
They were warned first!
Ruskies don’t tolerate law breakers!
Have you seen the reaction to Prop 8 here in Kalifornia?
The gays are doing exactly what you discribe in your last paragragh!
Of course there will be a backlash on them!
Said the Taliban and Wahabbists
Protesting for homosexuality is as absurd as protesting against cochleaer implants.
-Homosexual "parades" featuring illegal activity, like public sex acts, should be shut down by law enforcement. These kinds of "parades" are also seriously counterproductive and I think gay activists are stupid to support them.
-ANYONE who tries to use the government to suppress speech they don't like is a loser, whether they are straight Muscovites or gay San Franciscans.
-Everyone has the right to peacefully express their disapproval of homosexuality. What's more, private individuals and businesses should be able to discriminate against homosexuals as much as they'd like.
I think we also agree that the response to the Moscow gay parade was out of line and heavy handed. We agree that there's nothing we can really do about it since this all went down in Russia.
The only point I'm trying to make is that it's wrong for FReepers to applaud government abuse simply because that abuse is directed against a group we don't like. I don't expect any FReepers to fly over to Moscow to join a demonstration; I don't expect them to even criticize the Moscow authorities. I just think they should have sense enough not to cheerlead police-state methods.
Do we really disagree on anything of substance at this point?
Like I said in a previous post, *anyone* who goes running to the government whenever they hear an idea they don't like is a loser.
It's bad when gays do it and it's bad when straight people do it.
Anti gays are using popular opinion to make the case!
We are being attacked as intolerant when the gays are using intolerant tactics.We are sick of one culture being able to call the kettle black without a thoroughly objective media!
We agree on all those points.
You can tell the FReepers what they should think and say, but don’t expect them to listen to you. As I said to tlb, a lot of us are fed up.
Don't believe that? Try having a straight pride parade and see what happens to you.
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