HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?

http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php ^ | 2003 | By Jeremy K. Moritz

[Hazwaste]

Belief in annihilation is whistling past the graveyard.

[BlessedMom92]

If God is not present, it would be Hell. If God didn’t have any authority over this world, we would create Hell. I believe that Hell is eternal separation from God, where there exists nothing but darkness and evil. In short, Hell is separation and isolation. That is the experience of eternal death.

[ScubieNuc]

Good verses, but what are they saying?

Should we maim our bodies to get into heaven? Most would say no. So that isn't meant to be taken literally. What the King James calls hell, was actually the word "geenna" which was a valley were trash was burned.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1067&t=KJV

Is that fire still burning today? No. So, again, this is a visual picture for people to get a concept of something bad and nasty.

The message of Jesus seems to be: knowing how terrible hell is, it is worth any sacrifice to avoid. Therefore, we cannot think of the kingdom of God just in the context of reward; we must also think in terms of sacrifice.

One other thing that stands out...those verses say that the fire is not quenched. It still fits that a persons soul could be annihilated in the lake of fire whos fires are never quenched. It doesn't say that the one in hell is burned alive forever and ever and ever and ever....

[RegulatorCountry]

It is also a “pre-christianity” viewpont.

Well, sort of. The Old Testament is not merely a "viewpoint" to Christians, even though that time has passed and we are entered into a New Covenant through and with Jesus Christ. What was, was.

[Augustinian monk]

What about Christ saying it would have been better that Judas was never born in speaking of his betrayal? Thanks in advance for your response.

[ScubieNuc]

Wherein Fudge says contradictorally it's not necessarily forever and ever. I think Fudge is fudging. "Forever and ever" is forever and ever. Rev 20:10 says that Satan and all who follow him will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever.

Let's look at that verse and it's context....

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The only three entities specifically mentioned being tormented forever and ever are:
The Devil,
The Beast,
The false Prophet.
After hell is emptied and the souls judged on whether or not their name is in the book of life, they are thrown in the lake of fire and experience...

The second death. What is the first death? The end of physical existance. What is the second death? The end of spiritual or soul existance.

The same reasoning on Revelations 14:11 talking about the smoke of there torment going up forever and ever. It also says that the followers of the beast and his image have no rest day or night. Is there day or night in hell? I don't think so. This verse seems to be talking about the fact that worshipers of the Beast didn't find peace and contentment, but turmoil and unrest.

While I'll admit, that is a tricky verse, it isn't as clear cut as we have been lead to believe. Revelations is a tricky chapter, filled with flash forwards, flash backs, flash side ways, with lots of symbolism mixed in. If the whole of the New Testament reinforce this "torment forever and ever" theme, I would say the weight of evidence would be against annihilation, but in my renewed look at the evidence, torment forever and ever isn't the strongest answer.

One last thing, before I go. I used to argue with SDA's against annihilation, but now I agree with them on that. I am not now, nor plan to be an SDA. While I know some who are Christians, I still am at odds with them on their "Sabbath" only worship and their salvation through works doctrines.

[RobRoy]

>>What about Christ saying it would have been better that Judas was never born in speaking of his betrayal? Thanks in advance for your response.<<

He would not have had to endure what he endured up to and including this life and whatever he experienced before Jesus descended into hell.

[ScubieNuc]

What about Christ saying it would have been better that Judas was never born in speaking of his betrayal?

I can only guess, because Scripture doesn't go into detail on that verse.

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

My opinion is just simply what the verse implies, the agony Judas experiences probably made him wish he was never born. I suspect that his self hanging was a long agonizing affair also.

I think Judas may have been trying to "force" Jesus' hand by betraying him. I think Judas probably thought Jesus would use some miracle and overthrow the Roman government and set Himself up as King.

Judas came from a rebel sect, so that makes sense to me. There are no verses to indicate that Judas wanted Jesus dead. Judas was one of the diciples who preached and cast out demons. I think Judas just expected a different outcome. Remember, none of the diciples understood Jesus' fortelling of his rising from the dead, or else they wouldn't have been so glum.

Why? How do you see this verse tying into the discussion of Hell?

[Augustinian monk]

“Why? How do you see this verse tying into the discussion of Hell?”

I think most readers would read it to mean that there is some measure of future punishment for Judas. If his soul dies then it is the same as if he was never born. Eternal punishment would make some one wish they were never born.

[Sherman Logan]

You are most welcome.

The big problem I have with the idea of eternal torment is that God is a just and loving God. He said so.

It is not possible for a human to justly incur infinite torment as punishment for sins committed in a finite lifetime.

Does not compute.

For that matter, if the soul is not immortal there is nothing to torment forever. Without the immortal soul hellfire is not an issue.

[ScubieNuc]

I think most readers would read it to mean that there is some measure of future punishment for Judas.

I don't deny that Judas suffered some measure of punishment when his soul went to Hell (whichever side he was on). What I don't believe is a torturing, burning, tormenting of immortal humans forever and ever and ever if they don't accept Jesus as Savior.

[fr_freak]

A fascinating read. I have thought about almost all of these same points a number of times, and have pretty much reached the same conclusion. Furthermore, I would say that if our eternal existence, whether in joy or torment, rested on our belief system here on Earth, then the Bible would be far more explicit. Rather than having numerous sects and even different religions based on different interpretations of the Bible, we would have an unequivocal Bible which says: do this, don’t do this, believe this, and then all of these specific things will happen. Having a book of parables and metaphors which we have to interpret correctly or else suffer eternal torment seems particularly cruel and somewhat random in its results.

[nonsporting]

It's hard not to imagine that being thrown into a lake of fire (LOF) would not be tormenting.

The LOF doesn't annihilate Satan (and the deceivers), because they experience continuous ("day and night") and unending ("forever and ever") torment beginning at the point they are cast into the lake and continuing into the endless future ("will be tormented").

There is nothing to suggest that those whose names were not found in the book of life and who were also thrown into the lake of fire, did not experience the same fate as Satan and his followers. There could be qualitatively difference experiences, but that would venture into speculation. I think we can say none of them will be anything less than tormenting.

I don't get hung up on the phrase "day and night" because it doesn't matter if it is figurative (using an expression in a context where there is no literal day or night), approximate (parallel periods which might constitute day and night) or literal. It could simply mean "without break". However, "forever and ever" implies and unending, timeless quality to the experience. There is no end to the torment.

It's a strain to arrive at annihilation when the straightforward meaning is natural and obvious. On the other hand, if the author had intended to express annihilation, he could have used many, unambigious expressions which do not strongly imply just the opposite.

[swmobuffalo]

So what is the explanation of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man??

[Campion]

The big problem I have with the idea of eternal torment is that God is a just and loving God. He said so.

It is not possible for a human to justly incur infinite torment as punishment for sins committed in a finite lifetime.

I don't see that as a problem at all. The reprobate choose hell; God doesn't send them there. Heaven, in some ways, would be a greater torment to them than hell is.

A old Jewish joke may make this easier to understand. There was a rather nasty man who died. He met up with an angel in the afterlife. The angel said, "Okay, heaven or hell?" The man said, "Heaven, of course!"

So the angel took him to a large, bare room. In the bare room was a long table. At the table sat many men studying Torah.

"Okay," said the angel, "here's heaven." "What?!?" said the man, "This is it? If this is heaven, I'd rather be in hell!" "Fine," said the angel, shoving him inside and closing the door, "then it's hell."

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

So, if annihilation is given to the unsaved why not “eat drink and be merry”, be evil and swift annihilation awaits you. No punishment! just a swift soul death!

[fightinJAG]

I am not Catholic, so I didn’t want to presume on that, but I also think this is close to the purgatory idea.

Purgatory, as far as I understand it, seems to have gotten the hook by protestants mostly b/c of the abuses that surrounded it re relics and buying indulgences and so on.

A lot to think about here.

[parthian shot]

The Word of God is not to be taken literally?? Don’t even go there with me. If that is the case just throw your book away.

[kodirotti]

I believe “eternal life” is a a soul with purpose and enjoyment. The lack of “eternal life” is simply eternal death, basically torture and no purpose or joy and with no chance of escape. God gave man “free will” to choose either to follow His word or not follow His word. You are the one who chooses the final place by good or evil works in your lifetime. I cannot fathom that Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein just vanished or ceased to exist after torturing and killing millions of people. Where would be the justice God has promised?

[Sherman Logan]

Even Stalin and Hitler, obviously among the most extreme examples, were able to commit, despite trying their hardest, only finite evil.

IMHO, finite evil cannot justify infinite punishment.

FTM, this is an odd discussion in today’s world, where there is a consensus that torture by agents of the USA is entirely inappropriate for purposes of punishment. We argue at present even about whether it can ever by justified to save innocent lives by gathering information. Yet you and many others seem to believe God is less just than the Founders who banned “cruel and unusual punishment” for crimes.