HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?

http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php ^ | 2003 | By Jeremy K. Moritz

[RobRoy]

>>Please remember, no matter how much we want to set our own rules and perceptions, it is ultimately God’s word which will prevail wether we like it or not.<<

With that I strongly agree. I notice on these threads that usually what is being argued is not Gods word, but interpretations of God’s word. Heck, I listened to a homosexual minister that tried to say that where the bible said it is wrong for a man to lay with another man, that it was referring only to “heterosexual” men. Now, THAT’s a stretch.

I believe twisting the word “death” to mean something other than a single and finite event is also a stretch. Outside the bible there is full consensus on it’s meaning.

Thw whole thing is really simple the “punishment” is death. Death means a ceasing to exist. A termination of ffunctionality and existence. “Eternal” death means you STAY dead. There will be no later resurrection.

[Seven_0]

I believe twisting the word “death” to mean something other than a single and finite event is also a stretch. Outside the bible there is full consensus on it’s meaning.

The whole thing is really simple the “punishment” is death. Death means a ceasing to exist. A termination of functionality and existence. “Eternal” death means you STAY dead. There will be no later resurrection.

There is still something mysterious about death. We can see what happens to the body after a person dies, but we lack understanding of what actually happens. Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man died but they did not cease to exist. When Christ died on the cross, he dismissed the spirit. How does this fit your definition? Why didn't the spirit dismiss the body?

[RobRoy]

Your examples are examples of death that is not eternal. That will not happen until the “second death” which nobody has yet experienced.

I don’t know what you mean by “dismissed” though.

On a bit of a side note, I went into surgery for the first time in my life about a month ago. They knocked me out completely. When I awoke in my room, it was nothing like waking from being asleep. It was like time travel - literally.

It was very different from the sleep experience where there is still some consciousness of the passage of time, albeit different from the waking experience. But with this, I was literally in the middle of an “inhale” on the operating table and then being woke up in my room an hour or so later, as if it was instantaneous.

I am thinking that is what the “first death” is like.

I am thinking the second death is identical, but without the being woke up later. And “eternal” death means there will not be a “later” waking up. Yer done.

I had a dream once where I drove a car into a concrete wall at around 100 miles per hour. I hit the wall and immediately crashed through it like it was plate glass and into pure light.

[Sir Gawain]

I can imagine "swimming" through cosmic "sunsets" and "feeling" the colors as well as seeing them!

You've just described LSD! :-)~

[dfwgator]

Hell

-The food is British
-The police are German
-The cars are French
-The lovers are Swiss
-The whole thing is run by Italians

[Seven_0]

Your examples are examples of death that is not eternal. That will not happen until the “second death” which nobody has yet experienced.

As long as you are speculating, I will join you. You may be right here but I see another possibility. I believe the first death is an analogy that God has given us so that we will understand the second death without going through it. When Christ said “whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die,” he was talking about the second death and when we say that Christ died in our place, we also refer to the second death.

If Christ was facing the second death, it could explain his apprehensiveness on the night before the crucifixion. We really don’t have a complete understanding of death yet. The mystery is intentional because it is part of the lesson.

I don’t know what you mean by “dismissed” though.

KJV says, “he yielded up the ghost”

[ScubieNuc]

If I paint a wall blue for all eternity, it doesn’t mean I paint it for all eternity. It means I painted it once and for all eternity it STAYS blue it is (aionios) blueness, but the event that caused it to be blue is finite.

I like that analogy! I'm going to use it. 8^)

[nonsporting]

Death by Biblical definition is a separation. The "first" death is separation of the spirit from the physical body, but there is continuing (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord--2 Corinth. 5:8) The "second" death is separation of the resurrected person from God for eternity while consigned to the lake of fire. There is continuation within the lake of fire as attested to by the torment of Satan and his followers.

The lake of fire is a physical place. (In contrast annihilation is no place). It burns (a continuous activity) with fire and brimstone, unquenchable (Mark 9:43), with an unending torment for those who enter ("For everyone will be salted with fire" Mark 9:49). This punishment will be experienced eternally and will not be undone.

[ScubieNuc]

All analogies and parables ultimately fail. Ifan analogy does not fail at some point, it becomes the thing itself.

Another excellent point!

BTW, I appreciate all the time you have taken to defend and explain this controversial understanding of "the hereafter".

[RobRoy]

>>This punishment will be experienced eternally and will not be undone.<<

That is not a fact. It is, like my posts, an opinion. None of us really knows for sure. We will all individually find out for sure soon enough.

I’ve always hated the “turn or burn” concept.

[RobRoy]

>>The lake of fire is a physical place. (In contrast annihilation is no place).<<

A slaughterhouse is a physical place. Cattle are annihilated there.

[RobRoy]

>>Death by Biblical definition is a separation.<<

I disagree.

“Death” is not a “biblical” word. It is an english word. It can be looked up in any dictionary. Death may cause separation, but it is an ending of life of a sort. It is an ending.

When a company dies, its parts may be sold off and “separated”, but the company ceases to exist. When I “die”, my spirit and body may be separated from each other, but my body ceases to live, feel joy, pain, etc.

[RobRoy]

>> The “second” death is separation of the resurrected person from God for eternity while consigned to the lake of fire.<<

Yes. And that separation effectively kills them. Dead, death. Ceasing to function.

And I think you and I define eternity differently. Here is my take: Time is a current that flows within an ocean called eternity.

[GonzoII]

"Better get over here and set these people straight"

(Matthew 15:8 - 9)

[RobRoy]

bttt

[woollyone]

aack!

[nonsporting]

>>This punishment will be experienced eternally and will not be undone.<< That is not a fact. It is, like my posts, an opinion. None of us really knows for sure. We will all individually find out for sure soon enough.

Eternal means "non ending", "without end", "forever". Annihilation is equally final, yet it appears not to present a problem for you.

I’ve always hated the “turn or burn” concept

A preconception which flies in the face of the plain teaching of scripture. I have tried, and it is not easy, to subject my conceptions to

[nonsporting]

>>The lake of fire is a physical place. (In contrast annihilation is no place).<< A slaughterhouse is a physical place. Cattle are annihilated there.

So this is the misunderstanding. "Annihilation" as used by those who disgree with "eternal torment/punishment" is not death, it is non-existance, non-being. Even when dead our spirit (according to the Bible and this is what this discussion is about--whether the second death is like the first where the creature persists in some form in some place (lake of fire), or to no longer exist) continues, absent from the body.

Now, one can argue the place of animals in heaven, but that is an altogether different discussion. We are talking about the non-believer, whose name is not in the book of life, raised to stand before the white throne judgement.

[nonsporting]

>>Death by Biblical definition is a separation.<< I disagree. “Death” is not a “biblical” word. It is an english word. It can be looked up in any dictionary. Death may cause separation, but it is an ending of life of a sort. It is an ending.

"Death" is the english translation for the Greek work "thanatos" which is the death of the body, i.e. that separation of the soul from the body by which the life on earth is ended.[Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament].

When a company dies, its parts may be sold off and “separated”, but the company ceases to exist. When I “die”, my spirit and body may be separated from each other, but my body ceases to live, feel joy, pain, etc.

Your point?

[nonsporting]

>> The “second” death is separation of the resurrected person from God for eternity while consigned to the lake of fire.<< Yes. And that separation effectively kills them. Dead, death. Ceasing to function.

They do not cease to function according to the NT. The occupants of the lake of fire continue to experience torment and punishment "eternally", both in John's Revelation and in Jesus' own words recorded in Matthew.