Posted on 03/21/2009 7:02:03 AM PDT by Liz
I ask because there's no doubt that large numbers of slaves were put to use in the war effort, leased out by their owners to build forts, dig ditches, etc.. Does Blackerby count those in his total?
How many free blacks were there in the south? Or is that one of those "unknowable" things? The 1860 census says about a quarter million.
No. Few people actually ever "benefited" from slavery because it was much more expensive & unreliable institution than simply making the slaves salaried workers because the owners had to incur ALL of the costs associated with his slaves & their families & could not get always get consistent labour outcomes due to the fact that it was slavery after all ergo not a guarantee of consistent or quality labour as occurs in a market driven work force. Sobering to realize that we in our hubris modernity are much MORE slaves than the actual slaves were because we MUST perform or be out on the street with no options.
No. The CSA was NEVER in rebellion. The CSA formulated itself consistent with the United States Constitution. It was Lincoln who was in rebellion to the Constitution which sparked the secessionist domino in the first place! Once those states left the dictatorial edicts of Lincoln's false & subverted "Union": he no longer had any jurisdiction over the CSA. To be consistent in your argument you would have to ALSO assert that Britain is still the rightful power over the United States because I seem to recall a similar " rebellion" against their administration. Lincoln put the entire United States in rebellion to the Constitution.
Depended on the state. As I said in my earlier post, if one goes on the likely assumption that almost all slave owners had families, and if you compare the number of slave owners in 1860 with the number of families then you come up with the percentage. Link
If you do the math, you'll find that the percentage of likely slave-owning families runs from a high of 49% in Mississippi to a low of 20% in Arkansas. Overall, about 37% of all families in the original 7 rebelling states owned slaves, about 25% of all families in the 4 states that later joined them owned slaves, and about 31% throughout the confederacy. Not far of from the 33% figure you quoted.
The Morill Tariff was a big part of the reasons for secession but not the only one.
Then why didn't the South rebel in the spring of 1860 when the Morrill Tariff was first introduced and passed out of the House, only to die in the Senate? Why did they wait until after Lincoln was elected, but before the Tariff was introduced again?
Furthermore secession does not just happen overnight. Secession Conventions were held FIRST before the states actually commit to declaring their independence. Therefore a lag of months should be viewed in the proper context.
The first secession convention was held in South Carolina on December 20, 1860. The last of the original seven confederate states announced their secession on February 1st. That's a period of 6 weeks, not several months.
Few people actually ever "benefited" from slavery because it was much more expensive & unreliable institution than simply making the slaves salaried workers.
The cost of owning a slave was actually quite low, comparatively speaking, as historians like Eugene Genovese have written. Housing lasted through several generations of slaves and was not a recurring cost. Food was rudimentary and inexpensive, cornmeal, fatty pork, molasses, foods that could be raised cheaply on the plantation itself. Clothing was also cheap and rudimentary, what textile industry there was in the South at the time seems to have primarily provided cloth for slave garments. And that was about it. Overall cost of feeding, housing, and clothing a slave was under $100 a year.
...could not get always get consistent labour outcomes due to the fact that it was slavery after all ergo not a guarantee of consistent or quality labour as occurs in a market driven work force.
But it was guaranteed labor. Available whenever the owner needed it. Labor that could be worked for long hours and all days of the week if necessary. Hired labor may or may not have been available, and if supply was tight then the plantation owner may have had to bid for his labor with his neighbors. Slave labor was just that, slave labor. Free.
And one thing you forget, one feature that made slavery more useful to the owners than free labor. Slaves were a liquid asset that could be sold at will, often at a profit. Put male and female slave together and you wound up with little slaves, also which could be sold for a nice piece of change. Try and sell your free labor and they'd lock you up.
No. The CSA was NEVER in rebellion.
Yes it was, April 1861 to about June 1865.
The CSA formulated itself consistent with the United States Constitution.
Sorry but no it did not. Unilateral secession as practiced by the Southern states was not constitutional.
It was Lincoln who was in rebellion to the Constitution which sparked the secessionist domino in the first place!
How was Lincoln in rebellion to the Constitution? All he had done was get elected. The original 7 states had announced their secession weeks before he was inaugurated.
Once those states left the dictatorial edicts of Lincoln's false & subverted "Union": he no longer had any jurisdiction over the CSA.
As President of the United States Lincoln was the president of all the states, including those in rebellion.
To be consistent in your argument you would have to ALSO assert that Britain is still the rightful power over the United States because I seem to recall a similar " rebellion" against their administration.
The difference being, of course, that the colonies won their rebellion and their independence was recognized by Great Britain through the Treaty of Paris.
Lincoln put the entire United States in rebellion to the Constitution.
Bring it on.
while we are "at it", tell everyone: do you also DENY that Blackerby says in his book that over 100,ooo Blacks served in the CSA military???
That's over 100,ooo free blacks, right? That doesn't include the 12 million slaves that also served the confederate army. Just so we're clear on that.
frankly, i thought #180 was understandable & reasonably clear.
SLAVES were NOT & COULD NOT BE "members of the forces" in either the US or CS armies, because they were NOT free to take the Oath of Enlistment. period. end of story. further, Blackerby NEVER says that they were members of the military.
btw, you're getting to be "a source of MIRTH" & "a common target for RIDICULE" to the intelligent people on FR. (otoh, i understand,to the BIGOTS/NITWITS/FOOLS/south-HATERS of "The DAMNyankee coven", that your BILGE is what passes for intelligent comment.)
don't you get tired of being laughed AT & thought a hate-FILLED FOOL by the southerners/neutrals on these threads??? (fwiw, there are numerous people on FR who don't like me & even some who DESPISE me because i an "southron", but they don't think i'm stupid or illiterate.)
free dixie,sw
what part of post # 180 was too difficult for you to COMPREHEND???
everyone on these threads KNOWS that you are nothing but a PROPAGANDIST for the most extreme lunatic fringe of (what passes for "thought" among) DAMNyankees, BUT i never thought you, up to now, INCAPABLE of understanding ordinary comments.
free dixie,sw
was THAT slave-owning "A-OK" with you???
fwiw, NOBODY in the USA/CSA had "clean hands" on this issue. NOBODY!
free dixie,sw
I’ll look forward to you posting scans of the relevant pages. When can we expect them?
Why can’t you tell me how many free blacks there were in the confederate states? Should I just go with the census number like Blackerby does on page 17?
Quantril was a terrorist also and recognized as such by history books.He used the excuse of war to carry out bandit raids on innocent civilians. In other words he was the northern equivalent of Brown.
Quantrill was an irregular, but was given a commission by the Confederacy. Also he did no worse than his Jayhawker Redleg opponents. Sen. Jim Lane for example.
The difference between him and John Brown, is that Brown had NO authority, and no state of war existed at the time.
Not all history books condemn Quantrill.
Comprehend? None of it. Believe? All of it. There weren't "100,ooo to 150,ooo" free black males of military age in all the South. You are lying. Again. And I await, with baited breath, your post telling us what page in Blackerby's book this nonsense is to be found.
everyone on these threads KNOWS that you are nothing but a PROPAGANDIST for the most extreme lunatic fringe of (what passes for "thought" among) DAMNyankees, BUT i never thought you, up to now, INCAPABLE of understanding ordinary comments.
Ordinary comments aren't a problem. Idiotic ones are.
ALL of the censuses of the 19th century are AT BEST "educated guesses". in all too many cases the "enumerators" made NO effort whatever to actually COUNT the people in the nation. (they still do NOT!!!)
free dixie,sw
absent your FOOLish belief that "slavery was all", the whole house of cards built by the REVISIONIST, south-HATING LEFT collapses of its own small weight.
another painful (for you DAMNyankees) is: to BE a DAMNyankee is to be a BIGOT & in all too many cases, an out & out RACIST.
free dixie,sw
he ALSO cannot truthfully tell us how many SLAVES/freedmen there was in the north, either, as NOBODY now living KNOWS. (every number is a GUESS & NOTHING MORE than that.)
free dixie,sw
“If terrorism is ok in some instances for a “just cause”, then the jihadists are ok.”
Terrorism was used to establish the current nation of Israel.
I'm waiting patiently for you to show me where I'm wrong. Between 100,ooo and 150,ooo free blacks in confederate ranks is your claim and Blackerby is your source. Prove it.
In what would become the confederacy? There were 132,405 in the 1860 census. As of January 1, 1863 every black in the South was free, though the rebel leadership didn't agree with that.
he ALSO cannot truthfully tell us how many SLAVES/freedmen there was in the north, either, as NOBODY now living KNOWS.
In those states that did not join the rebellion, there were 344,343 in the 1860 census. I will agree that nobody knows just how those figures changed because once the rebellion began there was a constant flow of blacks fleeing slavery and moving North.
You both realize that if we do have to take action against tyranny from our current government trying to re-impose slavery on us all, that it may well be the John Brown types who "get the ball rolling".
If they pass legislation banning our personal arms, seizing more of our property for their own needs, or attempting to enforce their shiny new "mandatory volunteerism" crap on our young folks, are we just supposed to sit there while they come for us one by one?
Or would we have to take the fight to them. Absent "official" authority. Acting AS individuals...
Think about it. I don't know enough about Brown to know whether or not his tactics and motivations were lily white or darkest evil. I do know what I'm prepared to do to restore our Republic and protect my family.
Think about it...
Y'all can go back to your regularly scheduled bickering now.
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