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To: Cyropaedia
WRONG.

Where, in the text of Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, do the terms, "Indian", "Native American", "indigenous persons","tribe" or even "taxed" appear...? None of those terms appear anywhere in the Citizenship Clause of the Amendment. The clause says, "All persons...".

Trumball was talking about the language of the Citizenship Clause.


All of Trumbull's remarks concerning "subject to the jurisdiction" came out of the debates over Senator Doolittle's proposing to include "excluding Indians not taxed" in the citizenship clause so that it would read "All persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, excluding Indians not taxed are citizens of the United States..."

THAT is the context of Trumbull's comments. INDIANS.

Wrong. The allegiance of immigrants is also something that the law recognizes. That is what our Citizenship Oath is all about; and why it is legally required of immigrants that wish to become citizens.

Yes, when immigrants are being NATURALIZED.

The citizenship clause has NOTHING to do with the parents, with the exception of those parents who are ambassadors and diplomats.

The ALLEGIANCE is referring to the PERSONS BORN. NOT their parents.

It's "All persons born... and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," not "All persons born... WHOSE PARENTS are subject to the jurisdiction thereof."


469 posted on 02/14/2009 1:38:46 PM PST by Michael Michael
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To: Michael Michael
THAT is the context of Trumbull's comments. INDIANS.

Your problem is that you insist interpreting this as an "either/or..." situation; as if it were some sort of zero-sum game. If this particular group was not included, then that group had to be included. It is not.

Doolittle wanted that provision regarding Indians in there because the 1866 Civil Rights Act (the current law) had a clause regarding Indians, and he felt that it was wise for the Amendment to also have clause provision regarding Indians.

The 1866 Civil Rights Act read :

"“All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.”

The act excluded (automatic) birthright citizenship to the children of immigrants.

BTW, they specifically added that exclusion regarding Indians to the statute because any Indian, by virtue of being an indigenous person, can claim they are not subject to any "foreign" power.

The other Senators told him that it (his provision) was unnecessary. Under the 14th Amendment, it had to be determined of all persons born in the U.S. wether they were citizens by birth or not. Either they were subject to the "full and complete jurisdiction" of the U.S., or, they were not. And this had to be ascertained of all groups, not just one or the other.

The citizenship clause has NOTHING to do with the parents, with the exception of those parents who are ambassadors and diplomats.

The ALLEGIANCE is referring to the PERSONS BORN. NOT their parents.

And as soon as you tell me precisely how to ascertain an infant's personal "allegiance", one way or another, at birth, then you are simply blowing smoke. I want to know specific, step by step instructions, OK? So then we can enshrine these provisions into law and have specific legal guidelines for every parent to follow.

You're full of it. Again, a newborn infant has absolutely no capacity to make those kinds of decisions. If you still don't believe me, I suggest you go talk to anyone involved with the Pediatric or Neurological Medicine, -just for starters.

The lawmakers obviously take all of this into account when writing laws regarding the acquisition of citizenship.The parents' status, under the jurisdiction, determines an infant's status at birth.

The citizenship clause has everything to do with the parents of a given child:

"“Framer of the Fourteenth Amendment's first section, John Bingham, said Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised Statutes meant “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” If this statute merely reaffirmed the old common law rule of citizenship by birth then the condition of the parents would be entirely irrelevant.”

That is what the Framers meant by, "born... and subject to the jurisdiction thereof...".
470 posted on 02/14/2009 6:41:18 PM PST by Cyropaedia ("Virtue cannot separate itself from reality without becoming a principal of evil...".)
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