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To: Intolerant in NJ; Calpernia; null and void; Chief Engineer
Obama is not the first non-Hawaiian born revolutionary to have a false Hawaiian Birth Certificate. Chinese revolutionary "(wikipedia) Sun Yat-sen was born on 12 November 1866, to a peasant family in the village of Cuiheng, Xiangshan county , Guangzhou prefecture, Guangdong province", that's in China. Yet he managed to acquire a valid Hawaiian birth certificate stating he was born in Maui.
COULD Sun Yat-sen, revered by both the People's Republic of China and the Nationalist government on Taiwan, be a son of Hawaii?

There's a birth certificate that says so, but even Sun renounced it in due course. It did, however, help him circumvent the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, which became applicable when Hawaii was annexed to the United States in 1898.

The certificate, issued by the Territory of Hawaii in March 1904, declared he had been born in Kula, Maui, where his relatives lived. As a "citizen of Hawaii" he could travel to the U.S. mainland in the early 1900s to rally both support and funds for his revolutionary efforts. Some Chinese friends attested to the birth.

His Punahou teacher, Francis Damon, certified to his good character but did not swear on the issue of birth. Damon is the grandfather of attorney Frank Damon, a major present-day supporter of Punahou.

Sun spent only a semester at Punahou in 1883. He spoke no word of English when he arrived in Hawaii in 1879 at age 13, but four years later received an English grammar prize at Iolani School, personally presented by King Kalakaua.

Sun was a notable first among Asian revolutionaries who used Hawaii to gather strength for their challenges to tyranny back home.

Honolulu Star-Bulletin, March 16, 2000
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2000/03/16/editorial/smyser.html


28 posted on 11/30/2008 6:43:23 PM PST by bvw
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To: LucyT

See linked post above.


29 posted on 11/30/2008 6:43:50 PM PST by bvw
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To: bvw; Calpernia; Fred Nerks; null and void; pissant; george76; PhilDragoo; Candor7; Polarik; ...

Thank you, bvw. Interesting post. Hope you don’t mind, here’s a clickable link.

Honolulu Star-Bulletin, March 16, 2000
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2000/03/16/editorial/smyser.html

Ping.


38 posted on 11/30/2008 6:54:20 PM PST by LucyT (.......................Don't go wobbly now.......................)
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To: All
There are many parallels between Dr. Sun Yat Sen and Obama, yet one glaring thing stands-out. Dr. Sun Yat Sen worked very hard all his life for others, becoming a medical doctor, then taking up the cause of Liberty, as he understood it. Sun Yat Sen was a full man, coming close to our own George Washington. Still, even he fell prey to Marx's ideologies and that fondness for the despotic politics and economics of Marx created a chasm that today splits China into two countries.

Sun Yat Sen was a full man, whose live was lived for others. Obama is an empty suit, all vanity and charm, whose actions are all for himself.

Obama, though, has a virtue -- he is honest in what motivates him. He always says "I will decide ...", "What I think is best ...", "What I will do ...", "My ideas will ..."

Obama is deceptive, but not in in speaking to his "I"-ness.

42 posted on 11/30/2008 6:54:52 PM PST by bvw
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To: bvw

Has anyone seen these sites today?

http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/10/23/obamas-citizenship-and-survival-of-the-fittest/

and/or

http://snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp

The factcheck site is dated 10/23/08 but the page data shows that it was updated today at about 6:00 GMT.

I think they are starting to tapdance around the issue, as I don’t remember these two mouthpieces of Camp Obama addressing the issues of Natural Born Citizenship and renunciation/affirmation of citizenship upon returning from Indonesia...all hypothetical analysis, of course /s.

By starting to spin on these issues, I can’t help but think that this issue is starting to worry them.


46 posted on 11/30/2008 6:58:03 PM PST by Shady Ray
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To: bvw
Obama is not the first non-Hawaiian born revolutionary to have a false Hawaiian Birth Certificate. Chinese revolutionary "(wikipedia) Sun Yat-sen was born on 12 November 1866, to a peasant family in the village of Cuiheng, Xiangshan county , Guangzhou prefecture, Guangdong province", that's in China. Yet he managed to acquire a valid Hawaiian birth certificate stating he was born in Maui.

Excerpt from: Obama's "birth certificate" - the devil's in the details

Hawaiian “birth certificate” history

Few official birth certificates existed at the turn of the century, and the few that were filed may have listed only the person’s first name. Hawaiian law established the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” program in 1911. The program permitted a person born in Hawaii who was one year or older, and whose birth had not been previously registered in Hawaii, to be registered by a family or guardian. Hawaii had just been annexed in 1898 and was a US territory, so documenting residents made sense. With families moving between the islands, or having children without the aid of a hospital or doctor, the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” allowed the new territory to capture names for census, voting, property ownership and of course, taxation.

The “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” application was a very basic form which was little more than a personal affidavit and might have little if any verifiable info of the birth. For example, Sun Yat-sen, Chinese revolutionary and political leader often referred to as the “Father of Modern China,” was able to file a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” application and immigrate to the US in 1904 using the form.

Once processed, Sun Yat-sen’s application became a true "Certificate of Hawaiian Birth":



As the decades passed, the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” Application and Certification process became more formalized. For example, this is the 1946 “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” application from Masayoshi Mitose, credited for having brought Kenpo martial arts to the US in the 1930s:


As is evident on Mitose’s supplemental data seems to indicate, the more detailed the support documentation, the greater likelihood the certificate would be accepted by the Secretary of Hawaii, and later, the Department of Health.


When Hawaii became a state in 1959, there were many people residing there who may not have had a filed birth certificate, but did possess a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.” Any person to whom a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” had been issued could request to amendment, including a legal change of name, via a “Late Birth Certificate.”

By applying for a “Late Birth Certificate” issued in lieu of a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth,” changes could be made to the official records of that person that were filed using the previously-submitted form. The “Late Birth Certificate” would be treated more like the more-legitimate “CertificATE of Live Birth,” even though several years may have passed, memories faded and accounts changed regarding the events surrounding the birth.

To make changes to the “birth certificate” on file, an applicant would be required to submit documentary evidence of the birth facts, often in the form of a questionnaire and affidavits, to support the registration of the “Late Certificate of Birth.” On a small island, in a time devoid of computers and databases, verification was a little harder to come by than today. Also almost like a small town, people knew each other and were probably not highly suspicious of forgery or incomplete birth records.

Once approved, the “Late Birth Certificate” would be registered in the official birth records in place of the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.” Under existing policy, the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” and supplementary data would then be surrendered to the Department of Health, assumedly to be archived.

The “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” Program was terminated in 1972 when, among other reasons, the law required the U.S. Social Security Administration to issue Social Security numbers and to obtain more stringent evidence of age and citizenship or alien status and identity. It is not publicly known how many citizens possess the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth,” or how many people used Hawaiian law to modify their birth records to reflect a “Certificate of Delayed Birth” on file in place of the previous form.

American citizenship has always been seen as being highly sought after for political freedom and economic opportunity. Laws similar the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” existed for Guam and other American territories.

By today’s standards, compared to the “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” era of non-computerized record keeping of 1972 and before, it would seem relatively difficult to “slip in” using Hawaiian law to prove US Citizenship, especially if the child had not be born on Hawaii.

However, even today’s Hawaiian state law provides for the issuance of “birth certificates” if the child is born out of state, and potentially out of the US, as long as the legal parents can show Hawaii as their legal residence:

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State.
(a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child. (emphasis added)

Does it now make sense WHY so many are demanding to see Obama's REAL "birth certificate"?


129 posted on 11/30/2008 7:51:25 PM PST by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: BP2

Mid-day bump


248 posted on 12/01/2008 10:11:12 AM PST by bvw
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