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Bloated benefits for unions are sinking automakers (Common theme, well argued)
Philadelphia Inquirer ^ | November 16, 2008 | Greg Lewis

Posted on 11/16/2008 5:22:26 AM PST by gusopol3

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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority; All
Maybe we will just pick up our new GM cars in cardboard boxes and assemble them ourselves.

“Your new GM car can be built with these simple tools.” (Drawing of a flat blade screwdriver and adjustable wrench).

“Follow these simple 982-page assembly instructions and don't call the 800 number for tech support until you have reviewed our FAQ on-line at buildyourowndreamride.com”


This happened in the 60’s in the UK with kit cars....:^)

To avoid an excessive new car tax (25%?) kit cars could be sold, but no professional help was allowed.

The Lotus cars (...era of the Avenger's Elan - we all like Emma Peel...:^) were even assembled at the factory, and then taken apart for shipment. I think the local dealers even offered a free 25 mile service - roll it in and they would fix those optional brakes...:^)

High taxes can cause funny effects... ...and GM would then have to compete with the yet-to-be-announced IKEA cars...:^)

81 posted on 11/16/2008 8:03:37 AM PST by az_gila (AZ - need less democrats)
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To: raybbr

Are we to believe that GM’s entire business is run on credit?
__________________________
You bet. You can’t lose billions and billions every quarter like they have and not borrow money. They have been and are now living on credit. It’s a lost cause. Even bankruptcy would only stall their demise.


82 posted on 11/16/2008 8:07:32 AM PST by Joan Kerrey
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To: hinckley buzzard; All
The Pinto died because it had the unfortunate tendency to blow up and turn into a fireball in rear end collisions. The Corvair was Nader's questionable target.


Nah... the Pinto that the lawyers got to was stationary when it was hit at 55 mph, IIRC.

This 55 mph rear end crash test was never performed on other similar cars (think small Japanese imports at that time) - it's very doubtful that any of the other small car would act differently.

Thank the ABA and stupid juries for killing the Pinto - I owned two, and they were OK cheap, small cars for their time.

83 posted on 11/16/2008 8:11:09 AM PST by az_gila (AZ - need less democrats)
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To: hinckley buzzard
The Corvair had a not very good swing arm suspension that gave it a tendency to rollover. This is from Wikipedia; this is accurate as I have read similar statements in other publications. Twenty-seven people died in Pinto fires. Given the Pinto's production figures (over 2 million built), this was no worse than typical for the time. Schwartz argued that the car was no more fire-prone than other cars of the time, that its fatality rates were lower than comparably sized imported automobiles, and that the supposed "smoking gun" document that plaintiffs claimed showed Ford's callousness in designing the Pinto was actually a document based on National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regulations about the value of a human life rather than a document containing an assessment of Ford's potential tort liability. I have seen photos of one fatal Pinto rear end collision; as I recall, the rear axel was driven to a point just between the front and rear seat. There are not many vehicles that would not burn after a collison like that.
84 posted on 11/16/2008 8:14:40 AM PST by Pelagius of Asturias
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To: meyer

Where’s my check? Where’s my 10 acres and my Lexus?
_______________________________
We’re checking into it now but don’t see your name on contributors lists which may delay payment considerably.
Your Government


85 posted on 11/16/2008 8:16:09 AM PST by Joan Kerrey
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To: Bernard

And put in charge of it Bill Richardson, former energy czar. After all, with one big agency dealing comprehensively with energy as started by Jeemy, we have gone from one-third dependence to two-thirds and growing. Bill has the added advantage of being Bill Clinton’s man who bailed out the Taliban when the Northern Alliance had them on the run, so he really knows how to help us lose the war.

And let’s not forget the Postal Service that, even with taxpayers picking up the entire bill for their enormous health care costs, are still outdone by private companies.


86 posted on 11/16/2008 8:19:42 AM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: ritewingwarrior
If we had an army like you we would not be saying President Obama and not be in the shape we are in. Free Market capitalism always works.

They are dropping like flies in my industry as well. Trouble is we lost 90% to imports since 1970 anyway so there are very few of us left.

87 posted on 11/16/2008 8:32:00 AM PST by rodguy911 (HOME OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE--GO SARAHCUDA !!)
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To: Upstate NY Guy
I just hastily sent my congressman this email in opposition to a bailout:

Re: Bailout for GM, Ford, and/or Chrysler, I am writing to let you know that if congress bails out the domestic automakers, I will no longer purchase a new car from them, because I would then be supporting an action that I believe is antithetical to the foundations of America. It would also be tantamount to supporting the very unions that are destroying our competitiveness in the global marketplace. Also, what would this say to Americans that work for the Toyota, Nissan, BMW and other plants in the US? You basically would have the federal government picking sides in an industry, just like they do in Europe, i.e. Airbus. Our founding documents are supposed to guarantee "equal treatment under the law". The congress should not pass legislation that so clearly favors a specific geographic section over other areas. A bailout would demonstrate clearly UNEQUAL treatment under any such law to be passed. This would be a horrible precedent.

88 posted on 11/16/2008 9:40:03 AM PST by mtrott
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To: cripplecreek

My husband was a salaried employee of General Motors (Generous motors as it was then called) over 20 years ago. He left because the plant closed...why?

The plant was very productive BUT GM wanted to sell it. It was their perogative to do it AND they were even then trying to divest themselves of Fisher Body (Fisher Guide) plants. Rather than go with the sale, the union voted in a militant president who vowed, “We’ll show THEM” and fought the sale. Two years later, the plant was closed and remains empty to this day. The older union guys who could retire, did so with full benefits and medical. The rest were without a job.

Both management and union have pushed GM to this path. THe management were dinosaur thinkers even then, but the union contracts have put the company in an impossible situation. I agree with the author’s article...if GM were to go bankrupt like other companies (look at the airlines!)and renegotiate and get on the same page as their competitors, then maybe they would have a chance. But they will NOT change if the gov bails them out. Look at what the UAW just said...”No more concessions” despite GM’s predicament.

This says it all!


89 posted on 11/16/2008 10:16:27 AM PST by t2buckeye
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To: Joan Kerrey
Just to help clarify, just about every business has to have credit, mainly due to an accrual method of accounting. You have to pay many times in advance in business and then float your customers billing for a period that exceed. For example I have a line of credit. I have to pay weekly payroll and other operating expenses, including some materials upfront. Then I bill my customers for the past 30 days worth of work. They usually have 45 days to pay in my industry and sometimes 60. If i didn't have credit i wouldn't be able to make the weekly payables while i wait for my money to come in. And we make money, so thankfully I don't usually have to touch the credit line.
However, recently with the banking crisis my customers have had a hard time getting money and some have been late with payments. Whether I get money or not I still have to pay my guys and my other bills.
I wish I didn't have to use it, but it is such a normal part of business that if I didn't have the line of credit i could be in trouble during these bad times, due to the large amounts I pay out each month.

The auto industry lays out Billions a month and if they finance the very cars they sell then they aren't actually making any cash back to operate. In order to get cash back they have to use accounting methods that get them to realize cash when they need it.

Our dollar has been based off of the ILLUSION of value. If we lost $2+ trillion in the market, where did it all go? The illusion has been busted, and hypothecating dollars is not acceptable.

Yes GM is in big trouble. They need to lay off workers, and get tax credits for upgrading to robotic assembly. Then they know exactly how much it will cost from day one forward, and can produce more with less.

The UAW is basically redundant, as many things in life are now. Machines can make things better, faster and cheaper. Time for them to learn new skills, like robotic maintenance and fabrication.

90 posted on 11/16/2008 10:37:03 AM PST by ritewingwarrior (Just say No.)
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To: mtrott

“equal treatment under the law”

With all of this I have been doing a lot of thinking about how we can fight the growth of socialism. I think it is going to require a constitutional amendment that will trump congress and the president.
One of the ideas I had was a guarantee of fair and equal treatment for companies, not just individuals. Yes it might sound crazy, but hear me out.
Should a company be forced to comply with laws, that would put it out of business? (i.e. Green laws) Or should some consideration be taken with companies based off of their financial output?
What about tax breaks and incentives? if the government tried to pull something a company had depended on in its short or long term financial planning, why should they suffer because of a political decision?
We suffer greatly at the hands of our government, and we need to stop letting it happen.


91 posted on 11/16/2008 10:43:57 AM PST by ritewingwarrior (Just say No.)
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To: mtrott
Thanks.

Lets all keep reminding our representatives: NO MORE BAILOUTS.

This has to be promoted on Free Republic. Conservative talk radio will not push hard on this because most are also accepting advertising dollars from the Big 3.

92 posted on 11/16/2008 12:31:00 PM PST by Upstate NY Guy
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To: etradervic
We will be producing “Welfare Cars” that will be even less competitive than they are now.

Nevr underestimate the Rat capacity for stupidity. There is such a thing as targeted import controls.

93 posted on 11/16/2008 12:38:49 PM PST by Stentor (b. July 4, 1776 - d. January 20, 2009 sorely missed.)
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To: Stentor
There is such a thing as targeted import controls. Import tarriffs saved Harley Davidson. Although AMF early ruined it, it was being destroyed by the Japanese dumping bikes priced below what HD could sell. I say study HD, and follow their lead. That said, there is a following HD has that GM has lost over the years. When he Japanese were forced to play fair that opened the door for Victory and a supposed resurrection of Indian.
94 posted on 11/16/2008 1:23:39 PM PST by Pelagius of Asturias
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To: hinckley buzzard
Simple question--as regards a viable domestic auto industry. Why do you suppose there was no such thing as a "1944 Ford?"

Will the wars of the future be fought in such a way that the USA will have the time to spend three years converting auto plants and ramping up production of heavy military vehicles?

I think it highly likely that the next World War will last about fifteen minutes.

95 posted on 11/16/2008 1:47:41 PM PST by Mr. Jeeves ("One man's 'magic' is another man's engineering. 'Supernatural' is a null word." -- Robert Heinlein)
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To: Fishrrman
These are just a few of the 3,750 results returned by Google with the keywords Amtrak unions severance pay.

While I accept your apology, you are going to apologize aren't you?, please obey the rules and be nice to others on FR.

The Labor Provision is Unfair: The Action Plan would require labor provisions beyond legal or contractual requirements. Amtrak employees already have among the strongest labor protections in the nation. Amtrak labor contracts provide for severance pay of up to 5 years, during which period Amtrak continues to pay for medical and dental insurance.

Amtrak Reform Council Action Plan Concurring Statement by Wendell Cox

A Future for Amtrak - New York Times He insists on allowing Amtrak to contract out construction and other work now done at higher cost by union members and scrapping six-year severance pay for ...

Amtrak Is Fighting Off a Walkout - New York Times Amtrak's problem, as one union official said, is not just that Amtrak has trouble ... and provide up to six years of severance pay for workers it lays off . ..

rom: Caroline Nolan/CNN
In: Washington
Posted 11-6-97

Subject: Senate Team Reaches Amtrak Deal

Senate members have been negotiating since last weekend, after a tentative agreement fell through following objections from Democratic senators John Kerry (D-Mass.) and John Breaux (D-La.).

They said union members would be unfairly penalized by a cut in the length of severance pay. Collective bargaining law mandates that Amtrak employees be provided with six years of severance pay, while the Senate deal gives Amtrak 180 days to negotiate a dec

Amtrak Train ADVISORY - What you need to know before you travel by ...

Many employees would get 5-year severance payouts in the event of a layoff -- it's estimated that it would cost Amtrak billions of dollars just to pay off ...

www.trackandtrain.com/atmypace/getting-around/amtrak.html - 15k -

Some say five years and others say six - take your pick.

96 posted on 11/17/2008 12:56:15 PM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot

“www.trackandtrain.com/atmypace/getting-around/amtrak.html - 15k -
Some say five years and others say six - take your pick.”

I work there - I don’t need to take my pick.

The “6-year” severance rule got changed to something like 6 months with the Amtrak Reform Act in 1997.

Even before it was changed, the requirements to qualify were such that very few current employees would get anything like that. I know I wouldn’t be eligible, and I’ve been running Amtrak trains since 1981.

I don’t know where you work, but wherever it is, I’ll assume you know what goes on there. When it comes to Amtrak, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. No apology offered.

- John


97 posted on 11/17/2008 7:58:34 PM PST by Fishrrman
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To: Fishrrman

You are correct, your perspective is much better than mine. I only know what I read and what I read was long ago. Some of what I posted was debate over the 1997 bill to reform Amtrak but apparently none of it was after the final passage.

Thanks for the update.


98 posted on 11/17/2008 8:07:29 PM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government)
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