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Massachusetts Passes National Popular Vote Bill, Joins Other Anti-Gun States
National Popular Vote ^ | 7/30/08

Posted on 09/02/2008 12:13:14 PM PDT by pabianice

July 30, 2008 - The Massachusetts Senate passed the National Popular Vote bill on third reading (and engrossment). Immediately beforehand, a crippling amendment was defeated by a vote of 27 to 9. Under Massachusetts legislative procedures, an additional vote is required in both the House and Senate to transmit the bill to the Governor. Although this vote was on the agenda on the session's last day (July 31), no action was taken.

On July 9, 2008, the Massachusetts House of Representatives passed the National Popular Vote bill.

National Popular Vote bill passes Massachusetts House 116-37

Massachusetts House of Representatives

On October 5, 2007, the Joint Committee on Election Laws voted favorably on the National Popular Vote bill in Massachusetts.

The National Popular Vote bill was filed on January 26, 2007 in the Massachusetts State Senate (S445, Status of S445) (S452) by Senator Joan Menard and Senator Robert Havern and in the House of Representatives (H678) (H710) by Representatives Martin J. Walsh and Charles A. Murphy.

Joining them in cosponsoring the bill are a bi-partisan group of 24 additional lawmakers, including Senators Jarrett T. Barrios, Patricia D. Jehlen, Michael W. Morrissey, and Robert O-Leary and Representatives Cory Atkins, Antonio F. D. Cabral, Steven D'Amico, James B. Eldridge, Lewis G. Evangelidis, Michael E. Festa, Mary E. Grant, Jay R. Kaufman, Stephen Kulik, Barbara A. L'Italien, J. James Marzilli, Jr., Matthew C. Patrick, Douglas W. Petersen, Denise Provost, Kathi-Anne Reinstein, John W. Scibak, Carl M. Sciortino, Jr., Frank Israel Smizik, Todd M. Smola, and Brian P. Wallace.

Under the current system of electing the President, a candidate may win a majority of the Electoral College without having a majority of the nationwide popular vote. The National Popular Vote bill would reform the Electoral College by guaranteeing the Presidency to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and the District of Columbia). The bill would enact the proposed interstate compact entitled the "Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote." The compact would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the membership of the Electoral College (that is 270 of 538 electoral votes). Under the compact, all of the members of the Electoral College from all states belonging to the compact would be from the same political party as the winner of nationwide popular vote. Thus, the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and the District of Columbia) will be guaranteed a majority of the Electoral College, and hence the Presidency. Because the compact guarantees a majority of the Electoral College to the winner of most popular votes nationwide, the compact has the additional benefit of eliminating the possibility that a presidential election might be thrown into the U.S. House of Representatives (with each state casting one vote).


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Massachusetts
KEYWORDS: 2008; banglist; bigmistake; electionpresident; elections; electoralcollege; electoralvote; electoralvotes; ma2008; nationalpopularvote
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To: pabianice

The entire State of Massachusetts needs a TIME OUT until they can conquer their Kennedy/Kerry addiction.


21 posted on 09/02/2008 12:44:20 PM PDT by JoeSixPack1
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To: pabianice
Futhermore, isn't this an Article I, Section 10 violation of the US Constitution? Even if the counter argument was made that states can choose any system they want for choosing electors under Article II, Section 1, a state could subsequently choose not to honor the agreement citing the Article I conflict.

Let's say this was in effect for the 2008 election, Obama wins the electoral vote by a narrow margin but McCain wins the total popular vote. Do you not think states like Massachusetts will cry foul and desperately try to find reasons not to cast their votes for McCain?

22 posted on 09/02/2008 12:46:02 PM PDT by NonValueAdded ("John McCain has a birthday but he gives US the present.")
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To: avacado

Democracy= Two wolves and a sheep discussing what’s for lunch.


23 posted on 09/02/2008 12:46:37 PM PDT by Emperor Palpatine ("There is no civility, only politics.")
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To: Roccus
That paragraph clearly talks about military activities, and I've always interpreted it as dealing with joint military agreements.

I agree that the words could apply to something like a mutual declaration that the declaring states would allocate their electoral college votes based on the national popular vote.

But the also could be interpreted to apply only to military activities. You can guess which way I think the Supreme Court would go. In the unlikely event the Supreme Court found that this restriction applied to non-military agreements, all the States who want this have to do is say, "I don't care what any other State does, but our Electoral College votes are going to the winner of the national popular vote." It would have the same effect.
24 posted on 09/02/2008 1:23:51 PM PDT by Phlyer
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To: pabianice

Good damn thing we don’t let the Mass. legislature decide ANY national issues.

We’d be sending military aid to Hugo Chavez if we did...


25 posted on 09/02/2008 1:24:44 PM PDT by Redbob ("WWJBD" ="What Would Jack Bauer Do?")
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To: BigEdLB
a national pop vote defeats federalism.

If all the states do it, then at least it puts another nail in the coffin.

I think a stronger case can be made that federalism was 'defeated' with the 17th Amendment. The only remaining question is socialism versus freedom - how far will our nation go toward socialism now that there is at least a mechanism for concentrating all power centrally. Whether the president receives the majority of electoral votes as currently cast - in virtually all cases as the result of winning the national popular vote anyway - or receives them on the basis of a simple popular vote majority regardless of individual state results is - unfortunately - secondary on the overall federalism issue.
26 posted on 09/02/2008 1:30:28 PM PDT by Phlyer
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To: Phlyer
How is lay any duty of Tonnage related to joint military agreements?

Given an expanded compact interpretation, it appears to be in conflict with in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct (my favorite example of "Manner" was Colorado in 1876)

27 posted on 09/02/2008 1:49:25 PM PDT by TeleStraightShooter (Was BHo's dad a bigamist or a polygamist.; would the world be better off if his mom had a "Choice"?)
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To: Phlyer

No Constitutional scholar here, but the “duty on tonnage” I believe would fall outside the military. Also IIRC, Article 1 Sec. 10 was the reason an Act of Congress was needed for New York and New Jersey to form the NY/NJ Port Authority.


28 posted on 09/02/2008 3:01:56 PM PDT by Roccus (People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient....then repent.)
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To: Phlyer
Sorry, I hit "send" too fast. There is also this from the same sec.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

29 posted on 09/02/2008 3:05:06 PM PDT by Roccus (People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient....then repent.)
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To: pabianice

They are trying to bypass the constitutional amendment process. Period.


30 posted on 09/02/2008 3:07:07 PM PDT by BlueNgold (... Feed the tree!)
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To: Pearls Before Swine

> If passed by an electoral majority of states, this would stimulate voter fraud on a hitherto unimaginable scale. The dead would be resurrected to vote Democrat in droves ,

Yes, and states could allow felons and children to vote.


31 posted on 09/02/2008 3:25:10 PM PDT by Hawthorn
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To: Phlyer
Please forgive my dis-jointed replies...busy on this end.

In the unlikely event the Supreme Court found that this restriction applied to non-military agreements, all the States who want this have to do is say, "I don't care what any other State does, but our Electoral College votes are going to the winner of the national popular vote."

The above article seems to use language that would preclude this

The National Popular Vote bill would reform the Electoral College by guaranteeing the Presidency to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and the District of Columbia). The bill would enact the proposed interstate compact entitled the "Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote." The compact would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the membership of the Electoral College (that is 270 of 538 electoral votes). Under the compact, all of the members of the Electoral College from all states belonging to the compact would be from the same political party as the winner of nationwide popular vote.

32 posted on 09/02/2008 3:25:53 PM PDT by Roccus (People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient....then repent.)
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To: pabianice

Damn, can someone introduce a Constitutional Amendment to throw MassAssChewSucks OUT of the Union?


33 posted on 09/02/2008 3:54:09 PM PDT by rfp1234 (Phodopus campbelli: household ruler since July 2007.)
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To: pabianice
Simple remedy: a state that opposes such nonsense should provide that the exact division of votes between the top two candidates will only be certified at the request of the apparent #2 candidate. In situations where an apparent third-place candidate would have standing to demand a recount, the votes for the apparent first- and second-place candidates would be aggregated unless the third-place candidate's tally was at least half that of the combined total for the first- and second-place candidates (if the "third-place" candidate's tally is below that, the candidate can't possibly be in first place, no matter what the subdivision between #1 and #2; if the tally is above that, the candidate must be first or second).

If Bob knows that he has lost a particular state to Jim, quite possibly by 2,000,000 votes, and if he knows that he won popular vote outside of Fredonia by 2,000,000 votes, he could decline to have Fredonia's vote counts certified. Jim would be awarded Fredonia's electoral votes, but he would not receive any credit in the national popular vote tally.

I'm sure that in such a situation Jim would want to sue to demand the publication of the popular vote tally, but I can't see how he'd have any standing to do so. Jim, after all, would be receiving all the electoral votes from Fredonia, and he's not entitled to anything else.

34 posted on 09/02/2008 9:42:13 PM PDT by supercat
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To: Roccus
The compact would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the membership of the Electoral College (that is 270 of 538 electoral votes).

Such language demonstrates clearly that the person who wrote it either (1) didn't think things through at all, (2) doesn't want the legislation to do anything, or (3) wants to inject total chaos into the election.

Suppose Bob wins the national popular vote, but Joe wins the majority of votes in Sylvania (which had passed legislation to, conditionally, award its Electoral Votes to the national popular vote winner). If the design purpose of the legislation in such case would be to award Sylvania's Electoral Votes to Bob, why should Sylvania's legislature care what other states do? If Sylvania's EVs can't swing the election, the legislature shouldn't really care how they're cast. If they can swing the election, the legislature shouldn't really care how other states' EVs are cast.

The only way in which the legislation and restriction could both have effects would be in situations where they introduce ambiguity. For example, in the state of Anvilania, the legislation is challenged before an election and struck down in Anvilania's 9th Circus, but the decision is appealed. While the appeal is pending, Yakko wins the popular vote nationally and in Anvilania, but loses the popular vote in a number of states that passed this legislation. If Anvilania is deemed to have this legislation in effect, the majority of states will do so. If the legislation is void in Anvilania, the majority of states will no longer have such legislation.

If Yakko had lost in Anvilania, such that the court's striking of the legislation would cost him Anvilania's Electoral Votes, he would have standing to continue his appeal. If he succeeded in reversing the earlier decision, there would again be a majority of states legislatively pledged to give their EV's to the popular vote winner and Yakko would win. Yakko's popular-vote win in Anvilania, however, would mean that he would no longer have standing to challenge the earlier decision. The appeal would thus be moot. Totally bizarre situation.

35 posted on 09/02/2008 10:08:16 PM PDT by supercat
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To: Roccus; NonValueAdded
enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State

There are many problems with this goofy popular-vote legislation, but I don't see I.10 as being a factor. Many states routinely have reciprocity arrangements with other states which are not forbidden under I.10 since such arrangements don't compel any action on the part of those other states.

As a simple example, suppose that Fredonia and Sylvania both offer snipe hunting licenses, and they decide that it would be in both their interests to allow citizens to buy one license and hunt in both states. There would be no problem with Fredonia and Sylvania passing legislation to honor each other's licenses. On the other hand, if Sylvania decided for whatever reason that it no longer wanted to honor Fredonia's licenses, it would be free to stop doing so at any time. Fredonia's only remedy would be to stop honoring Sylvania's licenses.

If there were a formalized and congressionally-approved agreement or compact between the states, Fredonia would be able to compel Sylvania to continue honoring its licenses. Absent such an agreement or compact, however, the most Fredonia can do is hope that Sylvania will have enough of an interest in having Fredonia honor its licenses that it will honor Fredonia's.

36 posted on 09/02/2008 10:18:38 PM PDT by supercat
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To: Roccus
The above article seems to use language that would preclude this

To the extent that the prohibition on compacts was interpreted to apply in non-military areas, then the language would indeed preclude joint declarations.

However, if the 'compact' was found unConstitutional (still doubtful to me, since the Supreme Court is seldom bound by the words as written), they could accomplish the same end with simultaneous "independent" declarations.

There are basically two issues, and they're separable. First, who defines how the state's electors vote? Answer: The state legislatures. So they could certainly, and within the Constitution decide to allocate their electoral votes based on how people in other states had voted.

The second issue is whether they can enter into formal agreements with other states on the issue. If that part is found unConstitutional, there are ways around it.
37 posted on 09/04/2008 12:11:18 PM PDT by Phlyer
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