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Mary, Unwed Mother of Jesus, Did Not Abort the Baby
Bible ^ | 1 AD | Bible

Posted on 09/01/2008 12:03:15 PM PDT by xzins

Mary, unwed mother, did not abort the baby Jesus.

She did the right thing.

Joseph had his concerns, but he came around when God spoke to his heart about what he really believed.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: elections; mccain; prolife
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To: xzins

“....a Jesuit was present at my ordination. But he was a renegade.”

I rest my case. IMHO, all Jesuits are renegades (ask any reigning Pope). And I’m old enough to remember high school retreats featuring Jesuits who styled themselves as “a fighting priest who isn’t afraid to talk to urban young people”. The kumbaya was so thick you could cut it with a knife, er, switchblade.

Mary’s holy exalted place as Virgin Mother in Heaven is really not going to be affected by what some tambourine-banging post-Vatican II leftovers happen to think about her. Problem is, too many of them are now archbishops.

Are you still wearing turtlenecks instead of a Roman collar?

;^)


41 posted on 09/01/2008 4:38:31 PM PDT by elcid1970 (My cartridges are dipped in pig grease)
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To: elcid1970

I’m not Roman....

(But, it hadn’t come up until now.)


42 posted on 09/01/2008 4:46:31 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins

That didn’t answer my question.

Anyway, we’re firing back and forth so rapidly, it’s obvious we both need to get off the internet and get a life. I’m outta here. Go, the Mass is ended.

Ciao, baby


43 posted on 09/01/2008 4:53:50 PM PDT by elcid1970 (My cartridges are dipped in pig grease)
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To: Moomah; sevenbak; Grig
Your comparison is offensive. It’s not like Joseph impregnated Mary.

ITA

Yet ever so often the reader runs into a Bible story that is left wanting for more, there is a obvious gap...

....leaving some to want to even question that which seems like a moral contradiction.

IMHO there is more to this Bible story!

44 posted on 09/01/2008 4:57:36 PM PDT by restornu (Some how you always try to re invent the wheel!)
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To: elcid1970

The Untouchables, Sean Connery

:>)


45 posted on 09/01/2008 4:58:55 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins

Yes I agree, but then why would Joseph seek to divorce her?

The bigger question is that God would not give the appearance of sin by having Mary impregnated, even by His spirit.

The betrothal period allowed for conjugal visits, otherwise Mary would have caused a situation that would have required her to be stoned to death.

A divorce was required in the betrothal period. They were not “unwed” in the eyes of the Lord, lest Jesus was made a bastard by the Holy Spirit!


46 posted on 09/01/2008 5:10:59 PM PDT by IreneE (Live for nothing or die for something.)
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To: IreneE

Because betrothal was a real committment, but it still wasn’t quite married. If as some said, Joseph got “conjugal visits” during their betrothal, then that would be a direct attack on Mary’s virginity, wouldn’t it be?


47 posted on 09/01/2008 6:31:02 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins

Mary was not ‘just another unwed pregnant teen’ as some have referred to her as. Rather in the marriage arrangement under Jewish custom she was already legally the wife of Joseph which is why he thought of a quiet divorce. Our Lord did not come into this world under a cloud of scandal for an unmarried pregnant woman could even be subject to stoning.


48 posted on 09/01/2008 6:36:49 PM PDT by magdalen
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To: magdalen

So betrothed to you equals the same as married. Is that right?


49 posted on 09/01/2008 6:39:58 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins; magdalen
So betrothed to you equals the same as married. Is that right?

No, betrothed in Christ's time among the Jewish community was nearly the same as married, and required a divorce to dissolve. Magdalen is correct.

50 posted on 09/01/2008 7:10:07 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Judith Anne

If betrothed = marriage, then Joseph and Mary could have consummated the marriage.

You don’t believe that do you?


51 posted on 09/01/2008 8:31:28 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins

COULD have? Yes. Did they? No.


52 posted on 09/01/2008 8:38:18 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Judith Anne

Judith Ann, you are correct. They did not come together, consummating the marriage.

Do you think it would be easier to defend Mary’s virginity (a) IF it were the custom NOT to have sex before the wedding, or (b) IF it were the custom that it was OK to have sex before the wedding?

On the one hand, no one could easily say that Joseph was the father of Jesus. In the other case, it would be natural to think that Joseph was the father.

I would pick (a).


53 posted on 09/01/2008 8:50:55 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins

Sorry, the speculation does not interest me.


54 posted on 09/01/2008 8:56:06 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: xzins
If betrothed = marriage, then Joseph and Mary could have consummated the marriage.

Betrothal is not equal to marriage.

It was binding as marriage (disolved by divorce) but did not give conjugal rights.

55 posted on 09/01/2008 9:25:45 PM PDT by newberger (Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death!)
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To: newberger; judithann

I agree.

Betrothal was far more binding than a modern engagement, but it was time prior to the wedding and the consummation.

Significantly, after the conception, Mary went away on a trip to her cousin house. Elizabeth calls her, “the mother of my Lord.” As near as I can tell, Joseph does not, at the time of the visit to Elizabeth, know of the pregnancy.

He finds out about it on Mary’s return, and it is at that point that he ponders sending Mary away. He knows that he has not had sexual relations with her.

Why not, if he’s allowed to?


56 posted on 09/01/2008 9:37:14 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins

You asked “why not — why did Joseph refrain from having sexual relations with Mary,..”

Who knows? The point of the way it played out was that Joseph knew HE DID NOT have relations with Mary.

So he wanted to divorce her until God set him straight.

Hebrews were allowed conjugal visits during the betrothal period.

Again, God would not subject Mary to scandal by impregnating her during this period of time. He would not reign down a perception of sin upon her!

As to why Joseph did NOT have sex with her? Who knows? It doesn’t detract from the Virgin birth - the fact that he knew he didn’t have relations with her made the Virgin Birth more clear...

The larger question is why her community did not try to stone her for being pregnant. They didn’t because conjugal visits were allowed.


57 posted on 09/01/2008 10:46:44 PM PDT by IreneE (Live for nothing or die for something.)
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To: IreneE
Hebrews were allowed conjugal visits during the betrothal period.

Find a scripture that says that.

58 posted on 09/02/2008 4:59:41 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: IreneE

Here is a scripture that says sex is not permitted during betrothal.

Paul said (2 Cor. 11:2) “For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

The Church is the Bride of Christ, but the Wedding Supper is clearly spelled out in both parables and in eschatological scripture.

The Church and Christ are fully committed during the betrothal period, but the consummation has not yet taken place.


59 posted on 09/02/2008 6:06:36 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: IreneE
From the Catholic (New Advent) Encyclopedia:

Most modern commentators, following the footsteps of St. Thomas, understand that, at the epoch of the Annunciation, the Blessed Virgin was only affianced to Joseph; as St. Thomas notices, this interpretation suits better all the evangelical data. ...

The Incarnation

This marriage, true and complete, was, in the intention of the spouses, to be virgin marriage (cf. St. Augustine, "De cons. Evang.", II, i in P.L. XXXIV, 1071-72; "Cont. Julian.", V, xii, 45 in P.L.. XLIV, 810; St. Thomas, III:28; III:29:2). But soon was the faith of Joseph in his spouse to be sorely tried: she was with child. However painful the discovery must have been for him, unaware as he was of the mystery of the Incarnation, his delicate feelings forbade him to defame his affianced, and he resolved "to put her away privately; but while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. . . And Joseph, rising from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife" (Matthew 1:19, 20, 24).


60 posted on 09/02/2008 6:25:35 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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