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To: Citizen Blade; Fichori
I don't think I'm misrepresenting her position when I conclude that she is okay with teachers leading prayer and Bible-reading during class time.

You certainly are misrepresenting my position.

For one thing, I don't advocate using classroom time for prayer and Bible reading. I'm talking about opening the day with it as used to happen in schools across this country for most of its history. No one considered that the *establishment* of religion for the hundreds of years in which it happened. I'm sure it happened in public schools at the time the Constitution was written and the framers and signers of the Constitution never insisted that schools not open with Bible reading and prayer, and they would know what they meant. If they thought that that activity represented the "establishment" of religion, they would have put a stop to it then and there.

Another misrepresentation is when you equate "allowing" with "teaching" and say that when I say "allow", I mean "teach". No. They are not the same thing.

Allowing is permitting, teaching is educating. Neither one qualifies as establishing.

431 posted on 09/02/2008 2:50:00 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; Citizen Blade; Fichori
You have posted in favor of "teacher led Bible reading and prayer" (#260). I think it was reasonable to assume that you meant during class, because that's when teacher-led things usually happen.

But okay, you mean outside of class time. Do you mean during official school hours, or after? In other words, if school starts at 8:15, does this "opening the day" activity happen from 8:05 to 8:15 for any kids that are interested enough to show up early, or is it an official school activity that happens from 8:15 to 8:25, and the kids that aren't interested have to be at school then anyway? If it's outside of class time, Citizen Blade has already said that's fine.

You have also said that "If I sent my kids to those schools [in a country where the majority religion was not the one I practiced], I would expect them to hear about that religion" (#307). It sounds like you expect non-Christian kids to be there for the prayers and Bible reading--is that accurate?

432 posted on 09/02/2008 5:06:01 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: metmom
For one thing, I don't advocate using classroom time for prayer and Bible reading. I'm talking about opening the day with it as used to happen in schools across this country for most of its history.

That's still classroom time- the kids are in their seats and school has started. I don't see the distinction you're trying to draw.

No one considered that the *establishment* of religion for the hundreds of years in which it happened.

People can be blinded by their own cultural assumptions. For much of American history, the student body of any given school was probably 99% Christian. Though still majority Christian, we're no longer so overwhelmingly religiously homogenous. Preventing the majority from using tax dollars for religious purposes, especially in the context of public schools where kids are required to attend, seems to be the heart of what the 1st Amendment was aiming at.

Another misrepresentation is when you equate "allowing" with "teaching" and say that when I say "allow", I mean "teach". No. They are not the same thing.

If we're talking about a teacher reading from the Bible and leading prayers during during class time, I again can't see the distiniction between "allowing" and "teaching," in that context. What's the difference, in your mind?

433 posted on 09/03/2008 8:54:37 AM PDT by Citizen Blade ("Please... I go through everyone's trash." The Question)
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