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140 dead in Madrid plane crash
(UK) Times Online ^ | August 20, 2008 | Philippe Naughton and Hannah Strange

Posted on 08/20/2008 8:12:53 AM PDT by rightwingintelligentsia

Some 140 people were killed today when a packed passenger jet caught fire and overshot the runway as it tried to take off from Madrid airport, official sources said.

The Spanair plane, with 173 passengers and crew aboard, crashed and broke apart as it tried to take off from Terminal 4 at the Barajas airport. It was heading for Las Palmas airport on the island of Gran Canaria.

The Reuters news agency quoted sources in the emergency services as saying that all but about 25 of those aboard had been killed - far ahead of initial death tolls given by officials.

The Spanish Cabinet was convened for an emergency session to discuss the catastrophe.

Relatives of those aboard the plane soon began arriving at the airport, where a spokesman said that a room had been set aside for them and psychological counselling was on offer.

The airport, Spain's main hub, was closed as firefighters aboard 11 engines tried to tackle a blaze on the plane, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82.

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; aviation; madrid; planecrash; spain
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To: livius
May God be with those who passed and bring comfort to their families and friends.
41 posted on 08/20/2008 10:08:28 AM PDT by never4get (We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
Earlier thread:

Seven dead in an aircraft accident in Barajas [Spain]

(Title was posted before the current casualty estimates; I've asked the mods to update it.)

42 posted on 08/20/2008 10:15:03 AM PDT by Turbopilot (iumop ap!sdn w,I 'aw dlaH)
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To: Moose4; khenrich
Jetliners can cruise on one engine no problem...but I don’t know about a fully-loaded MD-82 with 166+ people onboard, on a hot day, being able to get off the ground on one engine.

It wouldn't be certified to fly as a commercial aircraft if it couldn't complete a takeoff after V1 with one engine out. If the temperature were too high, the crew would have to leave off some weight (fuel, cargo, or passengers) to operate the aircraft within limits.

Actually, my initial speculation was that the pilots saw some sort of failure after V1, and tried to stop when they should have continued. That would put the aircraft off the end of the runway at (potentially) high speeds and could lead to the kind of impact/fire described. Incidentally, that's why there is a speed past which you continue the takeoff - it's better to get the plane into the air and circle to land then to run off the end of the runway and hit things on the ground.

43 posted on 08/20/2008 10:19:01 AM PDT by Turbopilot (iumop ap!sdn w,I 'aw dlaH)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia


The Spanair plane (snip) was heading for Las Palmas airport on the
island of Gran Canaria.

Note to self...never board an aircraft with Las Palmas as the destination.

(That’s where the two 747s were headed until diverted to their
appointment with destiny at Tenerife)

Tenerife Disaster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_disaster


44 posted on 08/20/2008 10:33:33 AM PDT by VOA
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To: Turbopilot
American Airlines has MD-80 IFSD's of one engine at 200 - 500 feet all the time (I think they may still have the largest MD80 fleet in the world). They had an epidemic of it a couple years ago caused by LPT turbine blade failures.

The news media blamed all the MD-80's parked at LGA on "Global Warming" when it was "lowest bidder" parts failing in recently overhauled motors that was really causing the problem.

Either the pilots screwed up, the plane was way overweight or the failure was more catastophic than a simple inflight shut down.

45 posted on 08/20/2008 10:42:18 AM PDT by UNGN (I've been here since '98 but had nothing to say until now)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

147 reported dead.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26309867/


46 posted on 08/20/2008 10:42:46 AM PDT by rdl6989 (What isn't above Obama's pay grade?)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

I had the weirdest thing happen. I got up late this morning after being up until 4 a.m. I’d been dreaming. I don’t remember about what, but suddenly someone in my dream screamed, “Oh my God, he (a former astronaut) crashed!” It woke me up. I got up, went to my study, and turned on FOX News to see Harris Faulkner reporting this plane crash.

It gave me a very strange feeling that I haven’t quite been able to shake.


47 posted on 08/20/2008 11:07:38 AM PDT by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: sageb1
I, too, had a dream about a plane. I had gone back to bed after getting up early to take my son to work. I dreamed that a plane was flying overhead, upside-down, and I kept hearing the engines droaning. In my dream I couldn't imagine why the plane was upside-down and why no one was concerned. When I awoke I figured the sound of the droaning engines (and the dream) was caused by my fan running. I had put a fan on in the window and turned off the AC because it had cooled down last night. Then I turned on the TV and heard the FOX report about this crash. Freaky, isn't it? I guess sometimes some of us have a little ESP - perhaps?

Now, I am just praying for the passengers and their families. Imagine the panic of that pilot when he realized he could not save the plane from dissaster.

48 posted on 08/20/2008 11:19:50 AM PDT by CitizenM ("An excuse is worse than an lie, because an excuse is a lie hidden." Pope John Paul, II)
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To: Righter-than-Rush
The plane was delayed after an aborted take-off due to engine problems. Ground crew inspected and certified. Second attempt, engine suffers catastrophic failure. Probably after V1 as described above.

Spanair is a company on the ropes, they've been trying to reduce costs (boost profitability) in hopes of a sale. Pilots were about to strike. Can't help but wonder about cutting corners.

Horror story.
49 posted on 08/20/2008 11:55:55 AM PDT by DaoPian (Don't Tread on Me)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
“They’re all pinko Commies,” McCain laughs. . . . “I think he’d like that,” Hillary smiles.

I laugh and smile when newspaper people attempt to write dialogue.

50 posted on 08/20/2008 12:52:13 PM PDT by firebrand (Support the National Center for Science Education)
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To: firebrand

Whoops. Wrong thread.


51 posted on 08/20/2008 12:56:49 PM PDT by firebrand (Support the National Center for Science Education)
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To: Calpernia

prayers up
how sad


52 posted on 08/20/2008 1:03:19 PM PDT by Velveeta
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To: Moose4
Close; you almost got it right, rabbit.

V1 is "go / no-go" decision speed. If an engine failure occurs prior to V1, the pilot in command, i.e., captain, will abort the takeoff. Should an engine failure occurs at or after V1, the aircraft is committed with its takeoff roll. V1 is calculated for each takeoff to ensure balanced field length. This means that for an engine failure at V1, it will take the same distance to continue the takeoff as it will to abort. The decision to abort prior to V1, or continuing the takeoff roll thereafter, is the option that'll take less distance. V1 is most heavily influenced by runway condition & aircraft configuration.

Vr is a velocity post V1 and is the aircraft speed calculated for when the pilot can apply control inputs whereby the nose of the aricraft can rotate approx. 3o/sec pitch for about 3 sec. At this point the aircraft should be virtually at V2.

V2 is the velocity at best angle of climb attitude with engine out condition. At V2 the pilot flying will apply an additional minor control input in order to rotate the aircraft exactly to the optimum climb attitude and the aircraft should begin to "fly". Once the aircraft is positively airborne, the pilot flying will adjust pitch so as to maintain V2 as the aircraft climbs to acceleration height.

Vr & V2 are dependent upon environmental conditions and aircraft configuration.

Once acceleration height is reached (usually at 1000' AGL above the airfield), the pilot not-flying retracts the landing gear and at V2+10kts flaps are retracted. The pilot flying adjusts control inputs in order to obtain best climb speed. This velocity is maintained until level-off altitude is obtained.

An old joke among pilots is that the second engine is there to fly to the scene of a catastrophic landing. When engine failure occurs shortly after takeoff, two problems exist simultaneously: low airspeed and low altitude. At low airspeeds, it's tough to maintain control of a twin with full power on one side of the aircraft and lots of drag from a windmilling engine on the other (not neglecting torque imbalance issues). The airplane will yaw and roll violently, and the pilot must immediately apply aggressive control movements to maintain control. And that doesn't even address the very real issue of stall avoidance.

Airliners always have adequate single-engine climb performance. For each takeoff, pilots examine performance data specific to each runway and incorporate temperature, wind, and aircraft configuration into each of the critical velocity calculations. The runway specific performance data yields maximum weight for takeoff assuring adequate performance in the "worse case scenario" - that is, an engine failure right at V1. Assuming that the performance data is accurate, aircraft climbout is guaranteed in so far as the flight crew follows proper engine-out procedures should that occur. Pilots have the benefit of realistic simulation training for such situation, and morover, that the non-flying pilot can take care of checklists, radio calls, etc, while the flying pilot concentrates on maintaining control of the airplane.

If an engine malfunction occurs at or post V1, the aforementioned takeoff procedure is adhered to up until acceleration height is reached. No checklists are conducted until then however; the flight crew's main priority is to concentrate on keeping the airplane under control and climbing to acceleration height.

Upon reaching acceleration height, the aircraft is leveled out, flaps are retracted at V2 + 10 kts, and accelerate to best climb speed before resuming the climb at that airspeed. Only then does the pilot flying call for the engine failure checklist. This emergency checklist leads to several others ("engine failure cleanup items" and "single engine approach and landing"), which are performed in between talking to ATC, dispatcher (and possibly maintenance control), coordinating the arrival with flight attendants, and perhaps a PA announcement to the passengers.

Each runway has a "turn procedure" assigned for use in the event of an engine failure. Many of these are rather simple and do not require a turn below acceleration height. Where obstacles present problems to slowly climbing aircraft, however, a complex turn procedure may be in force. Most turn procedures have textual descriptions, although a few are sufficiently complex so as to require their own Jeppesen chart. Here's the turn procedure for runway 10L at Portland: "Climb via PDX radial 085 until reaching PDX DME 7.8, or IVDG DME 7.6, then turn right heading 280. Acceleration height 1030'." In this case, you'd make the turn to intercept the PDX 085 radial at 50 feet (!).

After that, it's time to land, smile at the passengers as they deplane, and then go drink some beer.

53 posted on 08/20/2008 1:57:43 PM PDT by raygun
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To: All

My family lives in Madrid. This is the peak of the summer season, since school does not begin until late September/early October. I have not been able to contact my dad, brother... Please, y’all, pray!


54 posted on 08/20/2008 1:58:13 PM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: Moonman62

Spanair is hvg financial difficulties. Maybe maintenance was not so hot.


55 posted on 08/20/2008 2:06:02 PM PDT by floriduh voter ( Hey, hey, Fay, don't come back this way.)
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To: Former Fetus

That’s got to be agonizing, my prayers up!


56 posted on 08/20/2008 2:21:50 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing-----Edmund Burke)
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To: Calpernia

It is terrible.


57 posted on 08/20/2008 2:29:26 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny ( http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1990507/posts?page=451 SURVIVAL, RECIPES, GARDENS, & INFO)
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To: tpanther

Praise the Lord! The official list of passengers is out (www.elmundo.es) and I don’t recognize any names. However, let us keep praying for the families of the victims. May the Lord be with them and give them strength in the days to come.


58 posted on 08/20/2008 2:42:59 PM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: raygun

Wow. Fantastic explanation, thanks. Did I at least do OK considering I’m not a pilot, just a flight sim geek and longtime computer airplane nerd? :)

So if the plane was able to take off on one engine, even at a near-maximum load (~170 onboard), I wonder what caused it to stall out and crash if there was an engine failure. They’ve almost certainly recovered both the CVR and FDR.

}:-)4


59 posted on 08/20/2008 4:04:54 PM PDT by Moose4 (http://moosedroppings.wordpress.com -- Because 20 million self-important blogs just aren't enough.)
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To: UNGN
They had an epidemic of it a couple years ago caused by LPT turbine blade failures.

Delta killed a couple of passengers a few years ago when a turbine shed its blades while on the ground.

60 posted on 08/20/2008 5:15:04 PM PDT by PAR35
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