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To: Always Right
When a HS graduate gives a commencement speech that mentions Jesus, the state is establishing a religion and the students right to free speech and expression of religion must be denied.

Government schools can **not** uphold all clauses of the First Amendment simultaneously. It is impossible!

* If government allows free speech it violates establishment of religion, because students **will** talk about their religion with the other captive students.

If it tries not to establish religion, it inadvertently establishes atheism, and also shuts down free speech, free press, free assembly, and free expression of religion. Government also teaches the students that religion is irrelevant, unnecessary, and something so shameful we must be silent about it. This isn't religiously neutral.

When a state college decrees there is no god, the state is not establishing a religion. Something ain’t right there.

Something isn't right. What isn't right is the complete and utter conflict government schooling has with fulfilling all the clauses of the First Amendment simultaneously. This is impossible.

Solution: Begin the process of privatizing government education.

55 posted on 08/13/2008 10:42:12 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: wintertime
* If government allows free speech it violates establishment of religion, because students **will** talk about their religion with the other captive students.

Please describe how students discussing their relious beliefs constitutes an "establishment of religion" in violation of the Constitution.

60 posted on 08/13/2008 10:47:41 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: wintertime
Government schools can **not** uphold all clauses of the First Amendment simultaneously. It is impossible!

* If government allows free speech it violates establishment of religion, because students **will** talk about their religion with the other captive students.

If it tries not to establish religion, it inadvertently establishes atheism, and also shuts down free speech, free press, free assembly, and free expression of religion. Government also teaches the students that religion is irrelevant, unnecessary, and something so shameful we must be silent about it. This isn't religiously neutral.


Your statements show a profound misunderstanding of the law.

First of all, atheism is not a religion. Its a philosophical position. Being an atheist simply implies one holds a particular potion in relation to the truth value of a particular proposition. It donest carry along with it the baggage and hall makes of a religion.

Second, a school allowing for free speech DOES NOT violate the establishment clause, because its not assumed that allowing someone to speak is an automatic endorsement of whats said.

See if you can follow me here.

THIS is a violation of the establishment clause:

The principal of a public school gets up in front a graduating high school class and leads the group in prayer.

This is NOT a violation of the establishment clause:

A student speaker at a public high school graduation ceremony asks the assembled to join him in prayer.

The first is a violation because the principal is a public figure, and he has a certain level of authority and power over the students that he can, perhaps with intending to, us to compel them to pray.

The second is not a violation because the student is not a public authority figure, and obviously lacks the authority to coerce people into praying.

Furthermore, compelling the student to NOT lead people in prayer IS a free speech violation.

What it boils down to is that the government, in its authority as such, can neither encourage nor discourage any particular religion, or groups there of.

That can mean not having any Christmas related religious display, or having every possible one. Either of those is acceptable. What they CANNOT do is have only one religions display up and forbid the others. That is favoritism.
76 posted on 08/13/2008 12:39:11 PM PDT by Daemin ("The simple believeth every word." - Proverbs 14:15)
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