Posted on 07/03/2008 7:42:55 PM PDT by Coleus
I do not have a problem saying that some of the accusations made about priests were false. I am not sure of the percentage, but my general guess, from just obvserving false accusations in general would be in the 20 - 30% range, which is probably on the high side.
On the other hand I also have no problem in exposing the sinful and unbiblical way in which the whoe pediophile priest scandal was covered up. Even worse is the the high level of authority and the length of time it went on until it was exposed and something had to be done.
I have had no problem saying on FR that all sin and fall short of the glory of God, because that is the nature of man, especially those with unconverted hearts whether they be secular or whether they be wearing an outside visible "cloak" of religios garb of Protestant (I include Baptists in the group for this discussion) or of RCC in confession. And I will continue to say that. BUT...how widespread it was and the HOW it was handled, or rather NOT handled is what is most shameful and unChristlike and extremely hurtful to all those who adore and revere our Lord Jesus Christ.
You can use your word of the day, hubris, concerning me, I really don't care because the facts speak for themselves. They just do. What I have seen from when discussions of it have come up in person when among RC's is how quick they are to sweep the issus in the corner by talking about the relatively small percentages of false accusations. It really is quite sad, because it is how they ignore sin. Whether in person, or on FR, it is still sad. Sadder still is that the RCC has no way within its complicated framework to admit that these horrid men are vile sinners who prey on children, which is probably why it was all covered up to begin with. Contrast that to the biblical approach and it says quite a lot.
But, for the record, here is one who will freely admit that not all of the accusations were true. But, by far, the majority were.
Now a question for you - why do you feel such a need for vindication on that issue?
AMEN! VERY WELL SAID.
Hubris, BTW, seems to be a word . . . used in some parts of the web . . . primarily by folks who tend to use it . . . to accuse mostly those who tend not to demonstrate it.
Rather curious . . . for those claiming to be Christ-like.
Because this is NOT a thread about Catholics. How did it become one? THAT’s what I find prideful.
“We protestants are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO (another Quixism) much better at handling these clergy sex abuse scandals than the Catholics were.”
Wrong
“We protestants put our sex abusing clergy in jail and don’t pay out big settlements”
Wrong.
“The problem is MUCH less in protestant churches because our clergy aren’t homosexual and they can marry.”
WRONG WRONG WRONG!
But I thsnk you for your thoughtful reply. Is any protestant out there sorry for all the ugly things they said about the Catholic Church and clergy as a whole, due to the sex abuse scandals? Is any protestant out there sorry that now they have egg on the face and have to face their own disgusting truths? Is ANY protestant out there likely to say, “What can we ALL do about the problem of clergy sex abuse TOGETHER???” (Like admist it will arise unless we are all vigilant at all levels of our churches?)
I have not yet heard one constructive reply that was not self-justifying. I’m willing to bet Christ will hold the protestants feet to the fire on this, who joyfully and pridefully claimed this was a Catholic problem.
“...for those claiming to be Christ-like.”
I’m willing to bet, Quix, that NOBODY on this thread will make that claim. Unless you care to.
Amazing, isn’t it, that the protties* on this thread have done exactly the same things they accuse the Catholics of doing.
Does that surprise you?
*A Quixism
You are welcome. My aim and my purpose in engaging in this issue is to be honest and to put the flesh aside and abide in Christ and to not make it a them vs us scenario, but to honestly call sin as sin and Truth as Truth so that the name of Jesus is exalted and His fruit indicated and man and his deeds are pointed out so that God;s true children may lift each other up in His name, and not man's. I hope that at least 10% of my posts actually do that without me getting in the way! :)
Is any protestant out there sorry for all the ugly things they said about the Catholic Church and clergy as a whole, due to the sex abuse scandals?
I think the issue may be that in pointing out the way the scandal was covered up is not ugly, but it in fact true and is exceedingly more sinful than the ugly behavior that precipiated it. From a biblical standpoint and from what I have observed in participating in and reading even more apologetic threads over many years on many forums is that people begin to use words like "ugly" and other words in describing what others are saying in rebuking sin and refuting errors. They make it out to be a personal attack on their favorite pastor, priest, teacher, doctrine or whole theological system. This always happens. Without exception. We see the example in scripture also. It is just the way sinful man works.
And to be honest, reactions of many RC's here pretty much fit that pattern. It is like a politician or a liberal or kids when conrtonted with error. :) They scream "foul play", "he started it", etc, and go through all sorts of antics to keep others and themselves from admitting errors or falsehoods. And that is actually true of anyone who is being led by the flesh and not abiding in the Spirit. Gal 5 addresses that very well.
Is any protestant out there sorry that now they have egg on the face and have to face their own disgusting truths?
WHy does that make a difference to you? God says "vengenace is mine". I have found that those who cry loud for such vengance have less faith in God being able to handle things His own way and have misplaced their true trust. They are not offended not at sin, but at whatever they feel is a defamation of character of their particular theological idol, which here is the RCC. I know that I have acted the same way when I held on to false doctrines because I did not want to admit error - I did not want to admit that my faith was in a doctrine and not in the Lord God Jesus Christ. But, thanks be to Him, He used that offense to me to expose my fleshful pride in my theological idol. My prayer is that He will use the refuting of the sinful scandalous coverup to do the same for some.
Is ANY protestant out there likely to say, “What can we ALL do about the problem of clergy sex abuse TOGETHER???” (Like admist it will arise unless we are all vigilant at all levels of our churches?)
I think you will find, again, that it is not the indivual RC priests sexual abuse that disgusts people not in the RCC, as disgusting as that act is. Rather, it is the COVER-UP, the continual placing of these high number of sick abusers into other parishes where they were able to prey on other innocent children, time and time again. And that the RCC system not only allows that, but did not follow through with biblical banishment and stripping them of their clerical rank and authority, but just shuffled them elsewhere in the system.
It is that ugly cover-up that is found disgusting. Yes, as long as we live in a fallen world, there will be many who call themselves shepherds of the flock who are not and who abuse the lambs. And we are commanded to be vigilant and to check all things.
Have you thought that by exposing the sin in the RCC system which allows the pedeophiles for the most part, and the protectors of them to live in protected lifestyles, is a way of working together to rid the body of believers of this abomination? Did you ever stop to think that is the end. It is not a hatred of RCC or those associated with it. Indeed, I have a strong love for many of them. However, we cannot work "togerther" until there is an admission that something is wrong.
I have not yet heard one constructive reply that was not self-justifying. I’m willing to bet Christ will hold the protestants feet to the fire on this, who joyfully and pridefully claimed this was a Catholic problem.
I am sorry to hear you say that. For I have read many non RCC who are not self-serving in posting information and Truth. It is an RCC issue because of the set up of the system that shifted the sick abusers from one place to another in full knowledge of what they did, and because the RCC system protects the sinners, whether they be the abusers or the ones who covered it up and put them in new pastures, knowing that without full repentance and abiding in Christ Jesus, a pedeophile will contine in his sins.
From what I have seen, you are trying to deflect things and say that those who are exposing the RCC are making it about the abusers which, admittedly is not limited to the RCC. However, again, it is the RCC's set up which allows the protection of the abusers and those who cover it up. And those are, IMHO worse sinners than the abusers. And that is also the opinion of scripture. If you feel it is with pride that we contine to expose these awful sins, then you are way off base. Yes, there are some who will act and post in the flesh from time to time. That is what always happens when anyone is not abiding in Christ. But, most of the time, it is with a great sadness of heart that we must speak these things. A great sadness, but we do it because we must.
Does that surprise you?
*A Quixism
Can you please give facts, FR links and article links that show the widespread, worldwide, all the way up the corporate level that covers up and protects the abusers for years and years and years, knowing what they continue to do? And can you provide that same information for those church systems that only acted to remove the abusers from the presence of children because they were "found out" and the masses starting getting upset? If you can show that on a widespread basis, as is clearly what happened in the RCC, THEN, and only THEN, can you rightly accuse the protties of doing the same thing.
I have found that scripture is indeed true (go figure!) that when we accuse others of doing something, it is the exact sin that is found in us. And the more and louder we are accusing them, the more abundant it is found in us. I have been sorely convicted that when I am tempted to accuse someone of something, or just finding something in them that really irritates me, it is just a reflection of my own sinful behavior.
Plenty true.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2040899/posts
Evidently went on for years and years.
I promise to ping you to all the new articles. If you want to find more that are already posted, ask annalex. he has a whole directory of old and new cases by denomination. Maybe he’ll post it on this thread.
And this thread is about protestants. I’ll dissect your other posts when I get around to it, but I have a date tonight. And tomorrow night. With a Baptist. He’s not an idiot, though. :D
“First, let’s just see it”
I get it now. Then you will decide whether it is sincere or obsequious enough to earn forgiveness for the perceived hubris. Isn’t that position a form of hubris?
It's certainly a form of mind reading, which isn't allowed.
“It’s certainly a form of mind reading, which isn’t allowed.”
The question was “And then what?” It is not mind reading, just a reasonable deduction from the answer, “First, let’s just see it”.
You said: In Protestant churches all charges are made public and the pastor is removed from the pulpit.
And that of course makes it all ok and allows protestants to feel all nice and clean and of course the victims then have nothing to complain about. < /sarcasm and shaking of head>
I hope you don’t get too much sand in your ears.
Can you please give facts, FR links and article links that show the widespread, worldwide, all the way up the corporate level that covers up and protects the abusers for years and years and years, knowing what they continue to do? And can you provide that same information for those church systems that only acted to remove the abusers from the presence of children because they were "found out" and the masses starting getting upset?
I already admit to individual pastors that are abusers. Please note what I am asking for: widespread, worldwide, all the way up the corporate level that covers up and protects the abusers for years and years and years, knowing what they continue to do? ... church systems
The link you gave does not fit any of those criteria, let alone all of them. You, not another poster made a claim that I called you to back up. Please do so and please do not list a ton of links all of once. Please list them individually so that we can see if it matches the above criteria before adding other.
There is a true saying among salespeople and others who are trying to "sell" their ideas.
If you can't dazzle them with your brillians, baffle them with your B.S.
To me, a long list of articles posted is the latter, especially when the credibility of previous ones have been questioned. So unless you provide credible articles that other Christian church systems has covered up to even a small percentage the RCC did with the abusers, then don't post any links. I will again repeat to you. It is NOT the fact that abuse occurs that is the major problem in the continual exposure of the RCC abusive priest issues, it is the disgusting cover-up by their superiors, to not remove them from the flock, to not protect the flock, but to just move the abusers to a fresh flock, over and over. THAT is the issues. THAT is why so many people not associated with the RCC, (and some that are RC) continue to speak out against this and will continue until a true widespread confession and repentance and change is seen. Which, from what I believe, is just not possible for the RCC. I pray that I am wrong about that not being possible though. With God, nothing is impossible.
"Then you will decide whether..." was your claim. I'm just giving you the courtesy of letting you know mind reading is not allowed on the RF to avoid an intervention by the RM.
Scripture is always a great description of how we sheep act, isn’t it? Funny - I told my kids this truth and they are always amazed (not really) when they see that this is always true of judgmental accusers (not to be confused with exposing error). As the old saying goes, when you point the finger at someone, you have three more pointing back at you!
Well put.
Welcome to a collection of news reports on ministers who have sexually abused children:
Source: www.reformation.com
ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers
147 Baptist Ministers
251 "Bible" Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)
140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers
38 Lutheran Ministers
46 Methodist Ministers
19 Presbyterian Ministers
197 various Church Ministers
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links
website statistics
Sarcasm noted.
In Protestant churches the local and state court system ensures justice. In the RCC, secrecy is paramount, and the victims endure years of ugly denial by the church until one day it finally spills over into the court system by the sheer weight of the sin. The result is similar to what happened in Los Angeles last year when one diocese in one city on one day is ordered to pay $660 million as compensation for lives destroyed and faith lost.
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