Posted on 05/22/2008 10:46:31 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan
oops - you are exactly correct. BTW, it is posted at 599.
Ah, well. It was late. ;)
“Shouldn’t people be proving whether they are lying or not?”
Yes, and it is a fact that the grown woman who made the phone call in the first place that initiated the raid was a liar and the man she accused was not even there. So the whole thing got started because of a lie. I heard on the news this morning that the woman was charged with a misdemeanor, making a false report. Thanks.
“But all written *before* the Court of Appeals ruling, which likely makes further proceeding somewhat moot.”
I don’t consider this action moot. The people making the decisions to do this must pay for their actions. Ripping all these kids away from their parents without ANY proof and the slander they committed against them is beyond ‘moot’. Kids need to be protected. Parents are best able to do that. Some parents are bad, doesn’t mean some CPS worker is any better. Unlawful strip searches have also been reported on recently.
“The sect is absolutely media savvy. “
I have always thought exactly the opposite. The FLDS women are the worst spokespersons for their cause in my opinion and I always thought the media took advantage of it. Funny how our perceptions are opposite. To each his own. Have a great day.
“The posters who are not aware of how many 14 year old girls are getting pregnant by older men are just plain ignorant about the realities of America in 2008 (well, for decades). In fact, in certain cultures of America, the young girls are fair game for older relatives. “
Hey even Planned Parenthood encourages this activity. Of course thats to feed the abortion mill and not to actually have babies.
> I’d like to see more of these cults busted up.
Yeah? You better pray the libs never get into power, because they think most of Christianity is a cult.
What else is a cult? Mormons? Catholics? Tribulationists? Wake up.
Unless the girls were underage and the men were not. Then it's very illegal.
“Next time we cross paths, don’t automatically assume that I am the enemy and I will do likewise : ) “
I ain’t got no enemies, just friends I like to argue with.
: )
If you ‘attacked’ me, I’m sure you were attacking what I said, and not me as a person.
As far as the personal attacks, I try to stick to a NEW DAY concept of Forgive, and Forget. So, if you did, it’s forgotten history.
Some may hold grudges from the debates on the FLDS threads, but if so, they only hurt themselves by holding that in.
I consider the animosity to be a byproduct of the sensitive issues in this case. Religion and Children.
You look out your window, and post “it’s raining”, I look out mine and post “No it’s not”.
Then, I tell you how ignorant you are, and you tell me I’m retarded.
That’s pretty much how most of the Religion threads on FR go.
“Why not pull all the kids out of foster care then and send them to the FLDS. Would you be comfortable with that?”
They would probably receive as good if not better care.
Although I 100% disagree with polygamy and parents marrying their young daughters off to older men. I’ve known a couple CPS workers here in Florida. Their own lives were a mess and they were hardly the right people to be making decisions for other peoples kids.
“The 31 minors with children has been reduced by the state to 5, 4 of whom claim they can prove they are 18. The one remaining is 17 with a 1 yr old child.”
The only reason the state has a problem with a minor with children is because religion is also involved. They have no problem with drug addicts or other losers making babies.
I have always thought the opposite. The FLDS women are the worst spokespersons for their cause in my opinion.
The secret yearning of many persons faced with the challenges of a complex civilization, might subconsciously see something of America's great past. The push into the west and the women that actually bought civilized order to a male dominated rough house. (Which is was)
The women evoke an image of simpler times. Their speech is again something that seems plain and therefore good.
Having said that, and I concede certain points re a mass exercise,; an exercise that blanketed all. I will say this:
The jury is still out.
“Or, a struggle between Texans and ‘strangers’ over land.”
I’ve read stories of how the state or county was going to attempt to take their land.
What did you do about it? Did you report your concerns?
ROD PARKER is absolutely media savvy.
As far as the women of the YFZ Ranch, I would have to agree with Saundra.
There was definitely evidence of sexual abuse presented. They have the young, pregnant "brides". They have the fact the testimony that the children had been taught that there was no particular age that was too young to marry. They have the prior conviction of the leader of the sect on similar charges.
No abuse has been proven...
No abuse have been proven in criminal court as of yet. However, in abuse cases, the initial custody issues are almost always handled before the criminal case, because you can't leave an abused child in the house with the abuser until after the criminal case has been prosecuted. Therefore the court has to determine if it was likely that they children were abused before the abuse is proven in a criminal court.
...and none of families who filed the appeal even had children who could have fallen into the category of the hypothetical allegations.
Texas state law considers the children to be in physical danger if someone in the household has abused another child.
By treating the ranch as a single household, and providing evidence that some had been abused, the CPS and the family court justified taking all the children. While that does seem awfully unreasonable on face value, I suspect the active obstruction on the part of the FLDS which lied about children's names and made it as difficult as possible for the CPS to learn which children were from which household.
The FLDS did act like one household, and since they were unwilling to identify who had gotten the young girls pregnant, you could argue that they were complicit in the abuse themselves.
However, the appeals court didn't even mention the problems with determining who was from which household, and said they must be treated as separate households. Fortunately they now have the advantage of having the DNA evidence that they did not have at that time, so determining households should be easier.
The other main thing the appeals court took issue with is that the CPS could have taken other measures rather than taking the kids. One example might be to remove the men from the property. They could allow those who's DNA doesn't indicate them to possibly be the parents of the children born to the underage girls to return, but I doubt they can force the men to all submit DNA. Some have voluntarily, others have not.
It will be interesting as to how the CPS and the family court reacts to this. Turning the majority of the kids back over to the parents would likely make their lives much easier. I can't imagine how a county CPS is handling a sudden influx of over 400 new cases. I'm sure they aren't handling it as well as they would like.
“What did you do about it? Did you report your concerns?”
I never saw anything specific but would have reported it to the police if I had. One ended up losing her own children to the system.
“Yeah right. What are they gonna do... put a mall up out there?”
I dunno, i just saw an article with quotes from a state rep that they wanted the land. They have some nice buildings. They already pay their taxes so they cant use that angle. Perhaps we’ll next see an eminent domain action to take the property for a Costco or something.
“I got ya beat. My great-great-grandfather was 38, and married a woman 24 years his junior (that’s 14 for those in Rio Linda).
I love one upmanship. On of my great grandfathers was 60, a widower with 11 children who married a 16 yr old girl. They produced 8 more children. She remarried at 45 upon her husband’s death at 89.”
Yeah, and you know what’s wrong with that? I’ll tell ‘ya:
The Bible: Well, actually, nothing is said about it at all and in fact many of the marriages recorded there involve significant age differences.
Well then, biology: Gee, nothing there either. If either God or nature had never intended for such marriages to take place males would not be given the ability to procreate into old age.
Okay society: Yeah, that’s right. It’s just not progressive. Now if a young woman decides never to have kids, never get married, become a lesbian, get a couple of abortions or whatever that’s okay by today’s standards. So if people feel society should rule their lives then maybe they should at least not put down others who live differently — let the lemmings be the lemmings and the others fight conformity.
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