Posted on 04/21/2008 7:29:14 AM PDT by JRochelle
SAN ANGELO, Texas — Shortly after the raid began on the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch, a group of Mormon missionaries sat down to eat at a restaurant here. A man shouted out "compound!"
"There was this guy. He held up a knife and yelled at us," said Elder Tyler Duffy from Orem.
Some of the fallout from the raid on the YFZ Ranch is being felt by members and missionaries for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While the FLDS Church is not connected in any way to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, some Mormon faithful have said they feel they are being found guilty by association.
"There are some people here that believe anything bad about Mormons and that's what they're going to do," said Charles L. Webb, who serves as president of the Abilene, Texas, stake.
The LDS Church's presence in this part of Texas is small. The Abilene stake covers an area 25,000 square miles in size with about 3,000 members. There are only two LDS chapels in San Angelo, but a number of Baptist and other evangelical Christian churches. It's the polar opposite of Utah, where the LDS Church is the dominant faith.
In repeated statements, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have differentiated between the two faiths and expressed disappointment that some news media outlets have lumped the two together.
"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often called Mormons, do not practice polygamy and they have not practiced polygamy for over a century," Elder Quentin L. Cook, an LDS apostle, said in a video clip the church recently posted on YouTube. The LDS Church has said there is no such thing as a "fundamentalist Mormon," although an estimated 37,000 people who practice it consider themselves as such. Fundamentalists argue that the LDS Church has strayed from its original doctrine by abandoning the practice of polygamy in 1890.
Here in the Bible belt, many LDS members have had to explain the differences in their faiths — the practice of polygamy being the chief example.
Clinton Hudson, a student at Sonora High School, is a member of a Christian student fellowship. During a lunchtime meeting, he said one student said they should pray for the children taken in the raid. Another student said they should "pray for the Mormons."
"I approached her and said, 'They're not Mormons. They're fundamentalists. They broke off from the church' and described our history and how they broke off. It really helped a lot," Hudson said Sunday. "It was a great opportunity to get them to understand there's a difference between them and us."
Not everyone is interested in hearing their explanations.
Duffy said he was speaking with a man interested in converting to the LDS Church. After the raid, the man gave them back a copy of the Book of Mormon, saying he did not want to hear from them again.
"He didn't even give us time to explain," Duffy said.
As they go door-to-door, the missionaries have had to alter their introductions a little to clarify the differences between the two faiths.
"We're not from the church in Eldorado, but we share this message," said Elder Nicolas Librandi, from Murray.
Some have lashed out at the missionaries, blaming polygamy and allegations of child-bride marriages on the LDS Church. But some say there is more interest in the mainstream church, and its message.
"The purposes of God won't be frustrated," said Elder Ryan Bartley, from Carmichael, Calif.
Webb said he has discouraged members from helping out in the name of the LDS Church to avoid confusion between the two faiths, but said they should offer their services as individuals. The local Baptist congregations have contracts to provide relief services in disaster situations.
San Angelo 2nd Ward Bishop Jeffrey Bushman was contacted by a chaplain helping the FLDS women when they were being housed at Fort Concho. The women had requested copies of the Book of Mormon.
He sent them some copies.
"They didn't have anything or bring anything with them, I guess, and they wanted some scriptures and they asked for the Book of Mormon," Bushman said. "I didn't mind. We don't ever mind giving out (copies of the) Book of Mormon to people."
Of course historically there is a connection, but there is no current connection organizationally. But do you think some hot and bothered rager is going to listen to that? Unfortunately these Mormon missionary kids are only 21 years old and probably not used to that. I try to treat them with respect but am not interested in dialogue or debate-—but I do give them credit for their effort and know they’re decent people.
Very good question, GF. OMM, what exactly makes a fundamentalist Mormon a "non-Mormon" in your eyes?
If polygamy became legal tomorrow, would the LDS Church cease to condemn it? Would it again be a requirement for true salvation as taught by Brigham Young in 1866?
Another great question, GF. So, OMM, if the LDS "prophet" said, "polygamy is back on the table for time" would the fundamentalist break-off Mormons come home to roost? Would the two then re-merge?
I am bigoted against polygamy. I am bigoted against all who would defend it. I have no shame in that. Bigotry in defense of moral values is good.
Seems like the fLDS fits the description to me.
Why are you attacking others as being "vile?" (Doesn't that, then, by your own standard make you guilty of what you accuse others of being?)
Casting pearls before swine—this piggy was smart enough to pick up the pearls and wear them instead of trampling on them—and turned itself into PIGGY DRAG QUEEN
NO, it is not meant to be satire. I don’t see the gov has the right to take these kids from their mothers—the most vile form of child abuse I have yet witnessed in such massive numbers—these women clearly love their children.
I have yet to see proof of abuse of women or children in this compound. One of the supposed outrages, is the polygamy thing—hell, older men in every city in the country father children with multiple women, only they aren’t married to them and mostly have no part in carrying for the kids.
WAM BAM NWM CBY Notes Birth Date Marriage Date Death Date Brigham Young 57 June 1, 1801 August 29, 1877 1. Miriam Works ?18 22 1 2 1806 October 8, 1824 September 8, 1832 2. Mary Ann Angell 30 32 1 6 June 8, 1803 February 16, 1834 June 27, 1882 3. Lucy Ann Decker 20 41 2 7 May 17, 1822 June 15, 1842 January 24, 1890 4. Harriet Elizabeth Cook Campbell 18 42 ?3 1 November 7, 1824 November 2, 1843 November 5, 1898 5. Augusta Adams ?41 42 ?4 1802 November 2, 1843 1886 6. Clarissa Decker 15 42 5 5 July 22, 1828 May 8, 1844 January 5, 1889 7. Clarissa Ross 30 43 6 4 June 16, 1814 September 10, 1844 October 17, 1858 8. Emily Dow Partridge 20 43 7 7 *JS February 28, 1824 September, 1844 Dec, 1899 9. Susan Snively 29 43 8 October, 1815 November 2, 1844 November 20, 1892 10. Olive Grey Frost 28 43 9 *JS July 24, 1816 February, 1845 October 6, 1845 11. Emmeline Free ?19 43 10 10 1826 April 30, 1845 July 17, 1875 12. Margaret Pierce ?22 ?44 11 1 April 19, 1823 1845 January 16, 1907 13. Maria Lawrence 44 11 *JS January, 1846 1847 14. Ellen Rockwood ?16 44 12 1829 January, 1846 January 6, 1866 15. Martha Bowker 23 44 13 January 24, 1822 January 21, 1846 September 26, 1890 16. Naamah Kendel Jenkins Carter 24 44 14 March 20, 1821 January 26, 1846 1909 17. Zina Diantha Huntington 25 44 15 1 *JS January 31, 1821 February 2, 1846 August 29, 1901 18. Louisa Beaman ?31 ?45 16 5 *JS February 7, 1815 1846 May 15, 1850 19. Margaret Maria Alley 20 45 17 2 December 19, 1825 October 14, 1846 November 5, 1852 20. Lucy Bigelow 16 45 ?18 3 October 3, 1830 March, 1847 February 3, 1905 21. Mary Jane Bigelow 19 45 ?19 *S-1851 October 15, 1827 March 20, 1847 September 26, 1866 22. Eliza R. Snow 45 48 19 *JS January 21, 1804 June 29, 1849 December 5, 1888 23. Eliza Burgess ?23 49 19 1 1827 October 3, 1850 Aug, 1915 24. Harriet Barney ?25 54 18 1 1830 March 14, 1856 February 14, 1911 25. Harriet Amelia Folsom 24 61 18 August 23, 1838 January 24, 1863 December 11, 1910 26. Mary Van Cott 22 63 19 1 February 2, 1844 January 8, 1865 January 15, 1884 27. Ann Eliza Webb 23 66 18 *D-1876 September 13, 1844 April 6, 1868 (Column Descriptions) WAM: Wife's Age at Marriage. BAM: Brigham Young's Age at Marriage. NWM: Number of Wives after Marriage. CBY: Children of Brigham Young. *D: Divorced Brigham Young. *S: Separated from Brigham Young. *JS: Married Joseph Smith (Martyred in 1844).
blah blah blah
That doesn't prove anything. LDS missionaries hit up every house, and if they happen to stumble upon a random fLDS household, so be it. I'm not talking about if the LDS missionary division intentionally & routinely sends missionaries to the SW border of Utah/Arizona & the other fLDS strongholds. Your response didn't have specific info on that.
Your pretend "answer" falls flat (again).
Very good. I can see that you can tell the difference between 27 and 50, unlike others here.
I tried engaging on this topic a few days ago. I got back garbage. There isn’t an ounce of good faith in all of those people put together, so you can’t have any kind of reasoned discussion.
They twist and distort, and resurrect every old lie that has been around for 150 years.
The fact is that there has been so much discovered in the last few decades evidencing that neither Joseph Smith nor any of his associates could have invented the Book of Mormon, that what I used to know by the Spirit, I now know as a matter of reason. I remember Daniel Peterson saying several years ago that the intelligent critics of the Church were backing off in attacking the Book of Mormon, because their talking points were being destroyed, one by one.
Obviously, a lot of the critics on FR aren’t among the “intelligent” critics, and they need to attend a new anti-Mormon seminar, because their talking points are so outdated.
At the Joseph Smith conference at the Library of Congress in 2005, Robert Millett told of a letter he had received from a long-time acquaintance and friend who was a religious scholar from another denomination. The friend said that he had to admit that the theories of human authorship of the Book of Mormon were wrong, and even silly. The book was too complex and substantial. He could only conclude that the Book of Mormon
was dictated to Joseph Smith by a demon. I think there may be a few people in that camp on FR. I don’t remember names, but there are one or two who shout “demonic” at every opportunity.
The fact is, these people live to attack us. There are some people who just get off on hatred, and attacking others in vile ways. They think they have found a way of indulging their base instincts of which God approves.
We know that the LDS church is a restoration of Christ’s church, with the priesthood, the ordinances, and points of doctrine which were lost or removed, restored. We have an obligation to say so in appropriate circumstances. I just think that FR has become a sty, and it doesn’t do any good to discuss it here.
A useful sty, because it is such a good gathering place for articles of interest to conservatives, but a sty nonetheless when it comes to religion.
Since you are now sending people to a site attacking us because of lack of archeological evidence, has any one of you ever produced the archeological evidence for Moses? For that matter, where is the archeological evidence of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Well, I’m waiting, as I have been for months.
From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
• The Church reiterated on 6 April that it has no affiliation whatever with the Texas-based sect that has been subject to investigation by state law enforcement officers and child protective services in recent days, and whose leader, Warren Jeffs, was jailed in 2006.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued polygamy officially in 1890. Some people left the Church to continue the practice of polygamy, or were excommunicated because they refused to give up the practice. Some of their descendants are found in polygamous communities today in various parts of the United States and Canada, but especially in the West. They are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
• [The late] Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stated the following about polygamy in the Church’s October 1998 general conference: “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members … If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”
• Some news reports, especially those outside the U.S., still fail to draw clear distinctions between Mormons and polygamous sects whenever stories arise about polygamy in the Intermountain West.
• The term “Mormon” is correctly used to apply ONLY to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “Mormon” should never be used to describe polygamous sects.
• Latter-day Saints are offended when elementary mistakes are made in the news media or when printed or posted photographs fail to make the distinction between the Church and polygamous groups.
• Elder [M. Russell] Ballard [of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles] stated: “You would think that after over 100 years, media organizations would understand the difference. You can’t blame the public for being confused when some of those reporting on these stories keep getting them wrong.”
• There could not be two groups of people more different. Mormons do not look like members of the polygamous group in Texas — they do not dress like them, worship like them, or believe the same things.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a global faith with 13 million members worldwide. We teach the gospel in 90 languages. There are members of our faith in every country. We are the 4th largest denomination in the U.S. We have donated over $1 billion in humanitarian aid worldwide. We operate Brigham Young University. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be more different than these small, secretive, polygamous societies.
I guess you don't keep up with child abuse cases, then. Two common types of child sexual abuse cases involve a stepfather, live-in boyfriend, father or other family member who has abused a minor...where
(a) ...the mother of the child at least was vaguely aware of something amiss...and was therefore either an enabler or an accomplice; or
(b) ...the mother of the child knew absolutely nothing about what had occurred.
Let's just for a moment give the benefit of the doubt to these compound mothers & say a lot of them are (b) above. In the cases above, does the level of "love of the mother toward the child" effect whether CPS removes the child? (No!) [So stop preaching false standards of child protection]
Many of these mothers were themselves so-called "child brides" & have family members (mothers, aunts, stepmoms) who were the same. To claim that they were unaware of the goings-on flunks a reality check.
I have yet to see proof of abuse of women or children in this compound.
Ummm...that's why they call it a "compound." Do you think this desolate place in West Texas was chosen because somebody happened to stumble upon a tumbleweed & said, "Yup, this is the place!?"
LDS learned the hard way a long time ago the consequences of openly practicing polygamy. When Joseph Smith tried it in Nauvoo, as soon as we was exposed by an ex-Mormon in the Nauvoo Expositor, he abused his mayoral church-state separation power & ordered its destruction. That in turn, led to the mob attack on him. (Mormons don't usually like to discuss the why their beloved leader was in jail to begin with)
A generation or so later, once the railroad lines brought the "gentiles" to "Zion" (Utah), the lack of isolation is what ground their dark-corner practices to a halt. Hence a remote outpost like the Short Creek area is where the true "pligs" amassed 1-2 generations after mainstream Mormons were jailed for the same thing.
...older men in every city in the country father children with multiple women.
Non-sequitor argument. City "women" are not the same as "compound girls." The first is called true "consent"; the second "statutory rape." (You also seem to have a comprehension issue...polygamy is "illegal." That's i-l-l-e-g-a-l...as used in the sentence "jail time illegal.")
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