Posted on 04/18/2008 7:34:25 PM PDT by Chief Engineer
Guess what: there's a world out there beyond home schooling, and not everyone wants to jackboot their way into your home to make you stop homeschooling. Taking these kids away from an abusive home is not at all the same as taking everyone's kids.
You need to quit making this into something it's not. It just makes you look paranoid.
Or, alternatively, give up your claim and admit that this is being done out of love, not hate!
As if to underscore my finding there's this thing called the Thirteenth Amendment and it prohibits slavery. A later Amendment even let's females vote.
The thurst of the Constitution is to assure liberty for the people, not enforce involuntary contracts against them.
You need to take a serious break from this topic. You have gotten unbelievably personal.
There is evidence piled on evidence of social services doing just what you think they aren’t and parents losing their lives to prove their innocence. If you continue to defend the actions here, it will come knocking on your or a loved one’s doors some day.
And yes, it does happen to homeschooling families on a regular basis. That is why there is the HSLDA.
Taking children away from an abusive home should be done in evidence of actual abuse and an actual abuser. Not taking 400+ children away, sticking them who knows where, forcing the parents to prove their innocence and relationship to these children, and then hope you can get the courts to take so long you can “find” your evidence.
Look again, not what I said. Why don’t you admit that you want a police state where those in power, the elite, get to decide everything for you. Just hope that it is those that believe just like you when it happens. Otherwise it is going to be real painful.
In fact, I'm so confident in this that I will predict that the Governor of Texas will not find it necessary to deflower any "spirit brides" ~ but that's not the case with the Prophet of F(lds).
You should research teen pregancy rates in foster care before mouthing off.
This country’s government has had its problems. But it is STILL the best government this world has ever seen, and maybe will ever see.
Agree completely.
Many of those for whom the government can do no right claim they oppose what the cult was/is doing. The problem is, if the government can't take care of it, who can? Who else has the authority to?
Those women and children who were removed from the compound now actually have more rights than the cults leaders ever even considered letting them have. Do those "men" have the right to rob another citizen of their Constitutional rights? If they do rob them, who delivers them from their hands?
I don't see any alternative than the government.
They've had information on this cult for years. Their leader, Warren Jeffs, is in jail on rape related charges for arranging marriages of under age girls. He was tried and convicted, all through the legal system.
It's not a matter of not liking the religion, although there's plenty of reason not to. It's a matter of their history, the fact that they couldn't act until they got a call, which they did. They have to respond to a call for help. If they didn't they would have been crucified for NOT acting, especially if something had happened to that girl.
They got the call, they got a warrant, they investigated and found very solid evidence of abuse, which they used to get another warrant. What they've done here is beyond what happens in regular abuse cases as far as being technically correct.
Now they've got all these kids and they're trying to ID them, which is being complicated by the fact that these people aren't co-operating and the children are identifying several different women as *Mom*.
Now DNA testing has to be done. The alternative is releasing children to adults who may not be their biological mothers.
Would you approve of that?
You guys are all missing the point completely. You are so wound up in it being for the children that you are suffering from some of the most extreme tunnel vision I can imagine.
I do not want a single child hurt, ever. I do not like what happens to children in these cults. It is very disturbing. But, when it comes to the government intervening, we have a constitution that guarantees us some rights on how we are to be treated by that government. I see removing 400+ children from their homes without evidence each child has been abused (the accusation was for one girl, and an accusation is not evidence, or we would all be guilty of something) as an overreach by the government.
Two things will happen on this slippery slope issue. One, the government will expand their powers, limiting our freedoms, which is something we should be all be scared of. Just like a tax, once the government gets us to give up something, they will never give it back, instead looking for the next place they can take from us. Or two, this group will win some landmark decision further putting children at risk to be hurt.
Those who commit crimes against children must be brought to justice, but not at any cost.
And please review some of the evidence about what is happening to those removed from the compound. They have had their rights stripped from them. They are being held against their will by another entity. Surprisingly enough, in the US, adults can choose to submit to some pretty strange things.
” I’d let them stay with their moms, but, we can’t figure out who their moms are, and that’s not our fault.”
Nice of you to let them stay with their moms. OTH, is it really any business of ours who their moms are? I mean, so long as the children and moms know who each is, what’s the problem? These worshippers are not going to provide any aid and comfort to outsiders seeking to disrupt their lives. They have been warned all their lives how satan lurks outside their domain. Now he has come a knockin and they aren’t about to let him in.
I realize their religion is out of the mainstream...way out.
Personally, I would never desire any part of it. Not for me, my wife, my children, nor grand children. But I also realize had I been raised in their way, I would most likely defend til death my right to worship and believe as I had been taught regarding my faith.
I figure the children know who their parents are and the parents know who their children are. But for the mistrust of outsiders intervening in their lives, they ain’t tellin.
Can’t say I blame them. I see it like this. It is not my place to judge others who have committed no harm to me and mine. By law, young teens can marry with parental consent.
How many abortions do you think have occured with this group? How many are hooked on drugs? How many murders have occured within this group? How many assaults? How many burglaries? How many times has law enforcement been called to the ranch? How many domestic violence cases does this group have on record? How many unwed mothers are there? How many actual rapes?
If a teen is married with parental consent, does the conuptual constitute rape?
Many a parent seeks to interject their values in the selection process of their child’s suitor/spouse. In this group it may or may not be an option. (Yet to be determined.) The question is, does the state have the right to make this determination rather than the parents?
Metmom, I disagree with your interpretation of what is happening.
The leader was convicted on a specific instance. If any compound could have been scrutinized, the Colorado City situation where they Jeff’s case originated could have. But they didn’t because it seems there, the police recognize some limitations.
And the call, intersting situation isn’t it.
Unless they had specific accounts of abuse against every child in the compound, they had absolutely no right to take them, period. It is about limiting the power of the government for the good of the citizens, on the whole.
So in order to prevent the slippery slope that you fear MIGHT cause you to lose YOUR rights, we sacrifice these women and children and THEIR rights, so you think you can sleep more peacefully at night, allegedly safe from the tyranny of the government? But not safe from the tyranny of anybody else.
If the government won’t, or can’t, protect them from harm done by other citizens, then it can’t and won’t protect YOU from harm done by other citizens. And when some other citizen manages to take away your rights and the government is impotent to protect you, who will?
So you favor just returning them to any old adult?
I mean, so long as the children and moms know who each is, what’s the problem?
You're assuming a bit much and have not been reading these thread very carefully. These women are refusing to give last names and the children are identifying several different women as their own mother.
THEY DON'T KNOW.
Read and learn....
Post by metmom with links to pligs that escaped.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2001944/posts?page=219#219
Carolyn Jessop
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jJAvqc5u9KM
Affidavit
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html
Hearing testimony
http://patterico.com/2008/04/17/day-1-flds-child-custody-testimony/
Good facts on pligs
http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/polygamous.htm
ABC documentary on the FLDS
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4677613
Post by jedediah on constitution
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2003370/posts?page=4#4
Interview of plig woman on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/04/14/cooper.kathleen.int.cnn?iref=videosearch
Newly Married Girls in Polygamist Sect Forced to Have Sex in Temple Bed, Court Documents Say
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=175#175
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=207#207
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=218#218
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=220#220
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=252#252
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=253#253
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=286#286
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=288#288
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999328/posts?page=300#300
Informant: Men had sex with underage girls in FLDS temple
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999244/posts?page=29#29
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1999244/posts?page=93#93
OUTSIDE LOOKING IN (Interview of ex-FLDS member...male)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2003232/posts
My Life in a Polygamist Compound
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2003504/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2003504/posts?page=97#97
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2003504/posts?page=181#181
Give em back. Texas Raid Based on a LIE??? (Blog Post includes video news clip)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2003594/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2003594/posts?page=36#36
You better believe when it comes to losing OUR rights, we have to limit the scope of government action.
Protect these women, protect these children within that scope.
Evangelize these women, convert them. Whatever it takes. But we cannot stand by while the government takes unchecked actions that violate our rights as citizens, adults and children alike, in the name of protecting the children.
If there is a crime against a child, then you deal with that child and the accuse perpetrator of that crime.
And, in all honesty, I expect my government to protect me from foreign enemies, and provide me a judicial system set forth in the constitution, and to protect my rights as a free citizen. I do not expect the government to protect me from every little thing out there, that is my job.
Remember the constitution also has a 2nd admendment in there. It is to protect us from our own government. Remember, the framers of the constitution knew what happened when a government’s power went unchecked.
The raid was prompted by an anonymous call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl who was being held against her will and claimed to have been raped and abused by a 50-year-old registered sex offender named Dale Barlow. He is on probation in Arizona for a 2007 conviction for marrying and impregnating another 16-year-old girl.
In other words, the chief suspect was known, in advance, not to be in the ranch compound.
Since the raid, the 16-year-old girl who allegedly made the complaint has not been found. In fact, she may never have existed in the first place. Authorities now suspect a woman in another state, known for making unfounded accusations, may have been responsible for the call.
The more that comes out about how this action occurred, the more I am convinced the government acted well outside of normal boundaries. But that is ok, it is all for the children.
Refusing to give last name, interesting challenge to the court ruling you have to give your name to the police. Very interesting approach.
And these people live in a communal environment, it is polygamy after all. So of course the kids will identify more than one person as a mom. Why are you so shocked by that. Other groups live in communes.
Some states say gay and lesbian couples can adopt, resulting in two same sex parents. Just from a purely secular approach, why would this be wrong? If it is ok for a child to have two lesbian moms, why not a few communal moms?
Sorry for the delayed reply, been on the road for about four days. No time.
What is your alternative?
I’d go after the men, and not harass the women and children. Either way, it is a real stretch to think government has a chance of winning this presently weak case on an issue they have been tolerating for years. Not only tolerating but actively helping them to continue living the way they have chosen.
Well aware of the cps issue vs the criminal issue, I just don’t consider either one worth much at the moment. There are pregnant under age females in every city and town in the US. That is hardly an issue worth what the state of TX has taken upon itself, IMHO. Time will tell, there are far more pressing issues as my 90 year old father in law has stated.
Issues like a seriously leaky border for one.
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