My Life in a Polygamist Compound

Slate ^ | 04/16/08 | Torie Bosch

[DoughtyOne]

Sorry Metmom, but I have been through the pregnancy thing twice with my wife, have talked to other man and they're not stupid just because they don't have ovaries and a womb.

Several weeks could mean anywhere from four weeks to two and a half months, even more. It's a rather imprecise term for a professional to use.

[DoughtyOne]

Thank you for the work you put into bringing this post together. It's clear this topic means a lot to you, and you want to see justice done in this case.

So do I.

Justice occurs when infractions of the law occur, legal means are used to bring the perpetrators before a court of law, the interests of all persons involved are cared for, charges are filed, a trial is held, convictions are obtained, sentences meted out, and sentences served.

All these considerations being met, you and I have no quarrel at all.

[DoughtyOne]

Good retort. I’ve been married twice, the second one took.

You take care. Congrats to you BTW...

[SkyPilot]

You take care. Congrats to you BTW...All these considerations being met, you and I have no quarrel at all.

I am feeling a bit left out of this love fest.

What was your "point" as you said it sir - or should I say "hot shot?"

[MHGinTN]

"No I am not Mormon
no, I am not 'a' Mormon
no, I am not 'of' Mormon
no I am not, Mormon
no I, am not Mormon
no I am not 'the' Mormon named Delf ..."

You're a joke. Even Delf has a better grasp of the Greek from which the King James was translated. You stealth defenders of perversion and deviancy are becoming so over exposed.

[taxcontrol]

Wow - you can’t even answer my simple question. So I will try this one more time.

Can a God who is without sin, give a sin as a blessing?

That is a yes or no question. Until you can answer that question, there is no further need to continue with this discussion.

[MHGinTN]

That you continue to live in your sinful state is a blessing from God. Now answer your own stupid question, dolt! Was Saul still alive when his household was put under David’s roof? And why was David obliged to take in Saul’s household?

[metmom]

Yeah, I believe everything I see on TV shows.

[metmom]

I’m still waiting for answers, but know better than to hold my breath.

*chirp, chirp, chirp,...*

[metmom]

I’ll answer your question with a like question. Does a man who is married commit lust in his heart when he lays with his wife?

What a pathetic diversionary tactic. All just to avoid answering a question.

That rates with the *How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?*

[SkyPilot]

Can a God who is without sin, give a sin as a blessing? That is a yes or no question. Until you can answer that question, there is no further need to continue with this discussion.

Oh No! Not until YOU answer THIS question!

Fruit growers will sometimes use smudge pots to try to protect their crops from a possible killing frost, particularly on clear, cold nights. A smudge pot is a portable heater/burner which produces thick heavy smoke. Fruit growers place a number of these around the orchard in the evening to prevent the crop from freezing at night. Do smudge pots actually work? Why?

You see - your attempt at distraction isn't going to work here.

You tried to imply that a man having sexual relations with his wife was in violation of what Christ said about lusting in your heart with another woman.

You then tried (with ham fists) to turn that into justifying sin, polygamy, adultery, and fornication.

Why?

Because Joey screwed a lot of women.

He has to be protected at all costs. If he falls, so does the LDS, FLDS, and RLDS cults.

By the way, you are LDS? Yes?

I figured.

[Recovering Ex-hippie]

It seems that would have been easier. However, with 416 children that the authorities were having a hard time interviewing (initially they hid and kept moving kids around) you really have to be able to interview each child.

Also, I am sure that the authorities did not want a spontaneous Jim Jones nightmare.

[Recovering Ex-hippie]

a very astute point...no one has made that comment and you are correct.

[DoughtyOne]

By responding to you, I am expressing respect for you and your questions.  I would appreciate it if you would read my response with that in mind, and try to understand that I am conversing with you in a respectable manner, and would appreciate you doing the same.

Bud, do you value your home and the sanctity of your property?

Do you REALLY believe that anybody should be able to do anything at all that they want on their own property without fear of any kind of repercussions? ANYTHING? Rape? Sex slave trade? Beatings? Abuse? Incest? Waterboarding infants?

I am surprised by your extrapolations derived from my expression that the initial warrant may have been problematic.  I'm just an observer like you are.  I am also observing that so far no charges have been filed and yet some have actually called for the death penalty for the perpetrators.

You and I share concerns over the things that took place at that farm.  I have expressed a number of times that I want the guilty parties to be brought to justice.  Still, you post thing to me like this.

If Constitutional infractions could be accepted here when serious crimes are suspected, then any time serious crimes were charged, the government could ignore Constitutional guidelines.  That is not a good situation.

The Constitution was written to limit the power of the FEDERAL government.

While I agree, neither of us truly accepts that this is the limit to the provisions of our Constitution.

Using the First Amendment as a blanket to protect illegal and immoral behavior is an abomination.

I don't think anyone is making a First Amendment claim here.  It would be a Fourth Amendment claim.  And if that claim is asserted, it is not to defend something that none of us does.  It is to defend against Fourth Amendment violations so that Fourth Amendment violations do not become acceptable.

The states are not limited by the Constitution unless they chose to adopt that for themselves.

If you give it more thought, I don't think you will agree with your premise here.  The states cannot choose to void the amendments of the U.S. Constituion.

California cannot decide that it will not allow First Amendment protections.  Florida cannot arbitrarily suspend Second Amendment protections.  Texas cannot arbitrarily violate Fourth Amendment protections.  And that being said, I have not stated that Texas has done this.  I have merely stated that I think it is a possibility that the state of Texas may have errored when it obtained the first warrant.

This means that my expressed perception is, that my concern may or may not be substantiated.  What is unfair about that?

Child sacrifice was part of many religions through out history. Should that be protected, too?

That you think you are making points by asking this, tells me that you really don't understand where I am coming from at all.  Based on my comments on this thread, you didn't need to ask this question, and I don't need to answer it.

Sharia law is part of religious belief. Do we have to allow that to be practiced because someone claims its part of their religion?

Please point to one single comment I have made on this forum that claims whatever is done under the name of religion, it is above the law.

Can I do whatever I want and claim protection by calling it religious activity and thereby escape prosecution for breaking the laws of this country?

Once again, you are somehow extrapolating meaning to things I have said, that have nothing to do with what I have actually said.  There's no basis for you to ask this question, and no need for a reply.

Do you approve of private citizens of this country (male cult leaders) denying other private citizens of this country women and children under their control) their Constitutional rights? Does any citizen of this country have that right to do that to another? Whose job is it, then, to protect the Constitutional rights of citizens from each other?

Please point out to me, where I have stated anything on this fourm that would lead you to believe I supported Party One denying the Constitutional rights of Party Two, Party Three, Party Four...

What's the point of having laws if they can be protected by abusing the First Amendment? They're meaningless if they can't be enforced.

I believe what you are trying to ask here was this...

What's the point of having laws if they can be overriden by Constitutional protections?  Those laws would be meaningless if they couldn't be enforced.

I restated this so you would know precisely what I was responding to.  I'm not trying to avoid your true intent, and if it seems to you like I have, it was not intentional.  Restate the question and I'll respond to it.

1. Creating laws that would violate the U.S. Constitution would be just that, a violation of the U.S. Constitution.
2. I am not aware of any laws on the books of Texas that would fail this test.

I have advocated two things on this thread.

I have advocated a close watch on what may have been Fourth Amendment violations.  I have not said that there clearly were.  I have said there is a possibility there were.  Since when is it wrong to advocate that Constitutional protections be strictly enforced?

Second, I have advocated that folks let the law take it's course and quit demonizing groups of people until charges are brought.  There will be plenty of time to voice our disgust at the vile things that should come out in court if they are true, or even not true, just suspected.  I have no problem at all talking about things that have been proven about Warren Jeffs and his other polygamyst groups.  I don't support illegal activity, or absuses of human rights.  This does not mean that I defend any criminal activity that took place at the Eldorado farm.

Let's just descend into anarchy and vigilante justice.

What are these threads other than just that?  We have become the mob in front of the wild west town sheriff's office.  I have seen folks here prescribe the death penalty to the men at the farm.  Folks, we do not know that every man was involved, no charges have been brought.  Can we just wait for charges to be brought, prosecutions leveled and convictions obtained before we call for people to be strung up?  Seriously, what drives this, some sense of having to prove that we think this was disgusting?  Who doesn't think that?

Is that what you want? Would that be a preferable alternative the government?

I am left speachless by your assumption that the laws on our books cannot deal with the problems at the farm?  Leveling a defense of the Fourth Amendment does not mean the system is broken.  We're not even sure the Foruth Amendment was violated.  To you it seems I am leveling a desparate attempt to protect illegal activity at the farm.  That is not true.  I am not trying to defend the paractices at the farm.  I am trying to protect the Fourth Amendment.  If the Fourth Amendment can be ignored in any case, it can be ignored in every case.

I do not want to see this case fall out.  If it does fall out it will not be the fault of defense attornies or anyone supporting the Fourth Amendment.  It will be the fault of the authorities that obtained the warrant, on the grounds that they used.

You've done an admirable job of criticizing the government in all this but seem rather weak in the practical solutions. What would you do? What do you think they should do?

My primary concern is the kids.  I have already stated I would have removed the men from the farm.  This would require charges being filed.  The first charge would be (and for all adults male/female), failing to report incidence of adult/child sex crimes.  I would add additional charges as crimes came to light.

I would have separated the women from the children.  I would have supported the continuation of schooling for the children.  I would have supported reasoned chores to continue for the children.  The farm would need some upkeep and it would be normal for the kids to continue on with some of their more reasoned tasks.

I would allow rolling short periods of visitation between the women and the children., as long as that remained nurturing and non-problematic.

I would take DNA samples and determine who were the parents and what relationships were verifiable.

I would issue national and internation warrants to aid discovery and extradition to face criminal prosecution.  This would involve every member of this sect both nationally and internationally.  I would even go so far as to say that our President should contact other world leaders so that our law enforcement teams could work together as seemlessly as possible.

I would seek criminal prosecutions concerning all crimes that could be proven to have taken place.

I would moniter the number of charges that were filed, continuing to assess as time when by what other measures would be required.

If it were determined that all adults were particpating in underage marriage, or even enough of them to make it clear this was the normal practice at this farm, I would start placing children with foster families.  I would do my best to make sure the kids were able to keep in contact with each other AS DESIRED only.  I would recommend group reunions to take place once or twice per quarter at first, perhaps to be reduced to once every four months later on.

I don't think it's going to be the case that only a few participated in the underage sex/crimes.  If that were found to be the case, I would convict every adult of not reporting adult/child sex crimes, sentencing them to decades long probations, that would include close supervision and rigid stipulations concerning parenting.  If those were not ahered to, I would place offending parties in prison for the remainder of their parole terms, file new charges per infraction and place any children affected by this.

Any adult or child asking to be removed from this situation, would be immediately, to include all related children as is reaonable.

If the level of criminality is what most of us believe it to be, then placement of all the children would be necessary.

I would urge the state officials of every state where this religious sect is operating, to implement these measures immediately.  They should have been once Jeffers was convicted.

This allows for people who were not fully on board the adult/child thing to be prosecuted according to what they have actually done.  It allows for innocent verdicts on the more serious charges to come forth, those people being able to pick up their lives and move on.  It allows for a conviction for every adult at the facility, for non-reporting.  It allows any child asking for protection, to be removed and protected.  It allows for children who want to remain with their parents who have been aquited of the most serious charges, to remain with them.  And it allows for up to daily monitering of the situation at the farm, if some folks are found not guilty of the most serious crimes.

It also allows for gaining control of the relationships at the farm, in that probationary stipulations could be put in place to make sure parental figures were established, that familial units were respected, and that children knew who their mom and dad was.

I'm sure this would need tweaking.  I'm open to suggestions.

[DoughtyOne]

Some women are so irregualar off the pill, that they get on the pill to regulate.

In some instances I think you have made a valid point, and in others I’m afraid you probably haven’t.

I do think it is a reasoned point, and certainly a valid one to raise.

[ansel12]

"???? The chart says it excluded them. Look at it again it says age 15 to 44, in fact it doesn't say anything about exclusions, it just says that it covers women 15 to 44.

[greyfoxx39]

Well, thanks.

[burroak]

Excuse me!

You don’t know me well enough to speak in that manner. It’s amazing how rude and belligerent one can be on the net. There is no way you would say that to my face and brag about it afterwards.

You have no first-hand knowledge of what is really going on down there. How can you aver with such certitude that what you are saying is true? Hoax calls should not be the basis for such an action. If and when this goes to trial, there is more than ample reason to reverse and guilty decision based on the “ fruit of the poisoned tree” theory.

As of now, this is all fodder for the 24/7 tragedy TV cable shows. There’s more to this story.....it will work itself out.

[Osage Orange]

Resty?

Well, bless her little heart.....

[burroak]

What makes you think that this same thing could not happen to you? The complaint calls are proving to be a hoax. Govt Agencies and law enforcement have a duty to investigate the complaint for its truthfulness. There was no need rush to this. The compound has been there for some time. Mark my word, the hastiness and carelessness of executing this move will fall apart in the court system. What makes you think that this same thing could not happen to you? The complaint calls are proving to be a hoax; govt agencies and law enforcement have a duty to investigate the complaint for its truthfulness. There was no need rush to this. The compound has been there for some time. Mark my word, the hastiness and carelessness of executing this move will fall apart in the court system. For some reason the McMartin family comes to mind.