Replies

While I agree with much of the rest of your post, that statement is ridiculous. - We need to stay within, say, 2,000 years when using examples...

I actually agree with you. Thinking on it; it was ridiculous for me to use that example but my point was (or should have been), that this doesn’t stop a lot of other people from quoting and interpreting the OT (or NT), usually taken greatly out of context, to defend or refute a lot of things that shouldn’t be defended or refuted.

I was in no way condoning polygamy in general and in absolutely no way condoning the actions of the FLDS.

But IMO there is a big difference between consenting adults willingly entering into a polygamous arrangement and the forced “marriage” of minor girls to their close relatives; the incestuous rape of children.

I’ve known a few Mormons over the years (none of them practicing polygamy BTW) who would be equally mortified by such deviant behavior. And just because some people of their faith once practiced polygamy, just like some folks in the good old “Biblical” days did, that doesn’t mean that they (the modern LDS, or Jews or Christians for that matter) today condone the practice now.

As to whether or not OT “scripture” or the Ten Commandments or GOD ever condoned a man having multiple wives, the OT does often mention that Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and many others who had multiple wives and since all these men according to the Bible, found great favor and grace with GOD and were not punished for it, one could reasonably conclude that at one time the practice was not against their religious faith.

I just get a little peeved when some folks attack Mormons for their religious beliefs; some of the most politically conservative and patriotic and moral folks I’ve known.

I also find it interesting and a bit disturbing when “conservative” Protestants go after “conservative” Catholics and visa versa over the finer points of dogma without seeing how much they have in common with each other.

But as an Atheist, I don’t really have a horse in this race. So if you all want to try to destroy each other, go ahead, be my guest.

But I also want to let all of you know that I’m perhaps an anomaly among many of my fellow Atheists, as I don’t think there is anything wrong with prayer in schools, with the mention of God in the Pledge of Allegiance, with the Ten Commandments displayed in courtrooms, with public Nativity displays, etc.

I often find myself defending religious freedoms rather than trying to stamp out all religion like some Atheists. I believe in freewill and the conscience of one’s convictions to believe or not believe as they choose.

But a “belief”, whether it is Muslim or the FLDS or The Westboro “Church” doesn’t mean that violation of the law is OK. The FDLS – not the main stream Mormon Church, is breaking the law by enslaving minor children against everything religiously and secularly moral right and legally acceptable.

...read the Old Testament text about the story of Lot and his daughters after the fall of Sodam and Gomorrah and tell me about how you can reconcile those actions. [Caramelgal]

(Not sure what you're implying here...maybe you could spell it out). I've at least noted once that when a FReeper posted something along these lines, he was trying to "tag" Lot for something. [If you read Lot's story, you'll note that his daughters first got him drunk in initiating their pregnancies. If you were insinuating this was Lot's issue, then I'd hate for you to be a detective investigating a crime where some guy got a woman drunk & then raped her. (If that was the case, you'd wind up blaming the victim).]

As to whether or not OT “scripture” or the Ten Commandments or GOD ever condoned a man having multiple wives, the OT does often mention that Abraham, Jacob...

Since you say you're an atheist, it sounds to me like you haven't read these accounts too carefully. (And while you may or may not care about the detail I give that follows, I do so for the sake of others who claim that Old Testament polygamy was somehow "God-inspired). Let's break down those you cite:

Abraham: Please tells where in Gen. 16:3 re: Hagar, or anywhere that Hagar is ever referred to as a wife or anything but a maidservant? Unless you think Abram's wife is "god," where did God ever instruct Abram to sleep with her? Where in Gen. 25:1 or thereabouts did God instruct Abraham to take another wife as he did with Keturah?

Jacob Jacob himself says that his whole multiple wife thing was sprung on him because he was "deceived"--he labored for Rachel and was given Leah minus knowledge it was her until he was "knowledgeable" with her to the point where he couldn't (in that day) throw her back like a fish in the lake. So, deception-based polygamy of Jacob is somehow "divine?"(see Gen. 29:23,25). Gen. 30 also shows it wasn't God who prompted Jacob--it was more women (Jacob's 2 wives) who acted in exactly the same pattern as did Abram's wife--with them giving their maidservants to Jacob. (Also, note that Leah was given a "bridal week" even after the deception in Gen. 29. So the question for Rachel's maidservant: Where was her "bridal week" between Gen. 30:3 (Rachel's idea) and Gen. 30:4 (sexual liaison carried out with maidservant)? No mention, there, of a new "bridal week" or "bridal day"...no assumption, therefore, that this was "polygamy" in terms of additional "wives"--they appeared to be "concubines--sexual cohabitators."

...David, Solomon, and many others who had multiple wives and since all these men according to the Bible, found great favor and grace with GOD and were not punished for it, one could reasonably conclude that at one time the practice was not against their religious faith.

Response: First of all, if we're going to "commend" polygamy just because David engaged in it (which seems to be your cockeyed argument), then I guess we have to "commend" adultery just because David also engaged in that, eh? (2 Sam chptrs 11 & 12). I mean, in effect, David made Bathsheba into a "temporary" polygamist--which is the bottom-line net effect of adultery. You can't get around that adultery, pure and simple, IS adultery according to Gen. 2:24; Matt 19:4-6 & was indeed "against...faith."

Secondly, David's concubines, post-repentance, were treated like widows (2 Sam. 20:3). His actions with Bathsheba was labeled by God as an act where David "despised" God (2 Sam. 12:10). It's possible that his first wife, Michal, may have died re: pre Solomon's birth via Bathsheba (2 Sam. 6:23 mentions her death).

Solomon: Solomon had been warned NOT to intermarry (1 Kings 11:2). Polygamy & "concubinage" behavior with idolatry-loving women turned his heart away from God (1 Kings 11:4). Solomon was condemned by God (1 Kings 11:9-11).

The Old Testament clearly condemned polygamy: "He MUST NOT take many wives, or his heart will be led astray." (Deut. 17:17). Solomon clearly ignored Deut 17 to his detriment.

I just get a little peeved when some folks attack Mormons for their religious beliefs; some of the most politically conservative and patriotic and moral folks I’ve known.

Oh. It's OK, then for YOU to "get a little peeved" at somebody's religious belief that says, "defend the truth from counterfeits," but if this same religious person acts upon a Mormon who provokes them, all of a sudden we hear from you, "Thou shalt not attack Mormons for their religious beliefs." (Which Mt. Sinai did you hear that commandment from?)