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To: Godzilla

I have dealt with different groups who claim to believe the Bible, for years, but who twist Scripture to suit themselves. Enoch 1 refutes all twisted Scripture and the doctrines of all who claim to be Christian, but who have a man-made religion which is not founded on the Word of God, Enoch makes the doctrines of the Word clear and explains the points of:

the Person and work of Jesus Christ;
everlasting lake of fire, who it was made for and why, and who gets a part in it and why, and how to escape it;
hell beneath earth and who went there and what conditions they are held in, there, and how long they would/will remain there;
the doctrines of demons, who and what they are, why they roam earth, when they will be removed and how and by whom and where they will be removed to;
The preappointed days, seasons, for all things, and the number of days appointed for this present creation, before the regeneration of all things, and what happens before that;
the reason for the cleansing of the earth by the flood, of every living soul but those on the ark;
the great tribulation which is to come, and the events that will occur during it’s time, and that it is the time of the second consumation of sin on earth, before the reign of peace;
the regeneration of the heavens and the earth;
the duties of the angels; their orders, the chief one’s names;
who the twelve crowned elders in Rev are, who are not human beings, but who are watchers, holy ones who did not fall and who intercede for men, in order that Zion, the City of God above, which is inhabited by elect angels [those who did not fall] and spirits of just men made perfect who were born again in Spirit when Jesus atoned for all Adam, descended, and rose with them, taking them to the City of God above, where they dwell since then, and where all the righteous born again in Christ and innocent babies and children who die before the age of accountability join them, to wait for the resurrection of the bodies in regenerated form, which they and we who are born again receive at the same time [which is called the ingathering of Pentecost, the first harvest of earth’s adopted sons of God in the New Man’s name].

That city of God, which is Zion of the Spiritual realm,is where the righteous dwell, and where Enoch saw, far off, the Watchers [-gaurdian angels] interceding for men, and where Enoch longed to go to, and was granted the desire, and so, he was transformed and was taken on ahead to that city of God in the heavenlies over this earth, and “was not”.

About canon: that is not a valid argument, as accepted canon has been different for different Christian groups in different parts of the world in different times, since the NT Chuch was formed; and the Holy Spirit did not change His mind and decide, about three hundred years after Jesus quoted Enoch, and his womb brothers quoted Enoch, and John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews quoted Enoch, that Enoch was not inspired after all.

The Ethiopian Coptic Church has kept Enoch in it’s “canon” from the beginning, so it was preserved for the Church, there, and in these last days has been translated into English [for the last two hundred years].

since Much in the NT is right out of Enoch, and no where else, then Enoch is validated by the LORD and NT authors and early Church writings of Christian believers, and is useful for doctrine.

http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/BIBLE/canon2.stm
“Whose Canon? Which Bible?
Biblical scrolls
Protestants tend to think there is only one Bible—ours.
Actually different religious groups of the Judeo-Christian tradition have different biblical canons.”


2,947 posted on 04/13/2008 7:49:59 PM PDT by prayforpeaceofJerusalem
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To: prayforpeaceofJerusalem
"... he was transformed..."

Another "one of those things."

The BoE recounts that he was anointed with the "Oil of Gladness" and transformed into the likeness of an Archangel.
Well, okay.

Metatron.

2,950 posted on 04/13/2008 8:21:23 PM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: prayforpeaceofJerusalem
I have dealt with different groups who claim to believe the Bible, for years, but who twist Scripture to suit themselves. Enoch 1 refutes all twisted Scripture and the doctrines of all who claim to be Christian, but who have a man-made religion which is not founded on the Word of God, Enoch makes the doctrines of the Word clear and explains the points of:

I have 66 books, that compose what is commonly called the bible that more than adequately addresses scripture twisters with no need to rely upon pseudographic works for support.

About canon: that is not a valid argument, as accepted canon has been different for different Christian groups in different parts of the world in different times, since the NT Chuch was formed; and the Holy Spirit did not change His mind and decide, about three hundred years after Jesus quoted Enoch, and his womb brothers quoted Enoch, and John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews quoted Enoch, that Enoch was not inspired after all.

First off, you are mistaken about Jesus' quoting enoch. Those sections are part of the Similitudes - written late first century, placing it after Jesus' ministry on earth. Therefore, Jesus could not have been referencing something that was not written at the time. Along those same lines, multiple authors wrote this document over the course of of a few centuries, it is too far removed to represent an extant document from Enoch's hand. Finally, 1 Enoch was not put together (composed of 5-6 separate booklets) until much later.

Second, canonicity is an important issue. While Enoch was popular, it was not held as scripture by the Jews, as evidenced at Jama. Jesus Himself never recognized Enoch as part of the canon of Scripture, but made it clear He accepted the traditional Hebrew canon as scripture. Regarding Jude, the final acceptance of his epistle was hindered because he cited a portion of Enoch (probably 1 Enoch 1:9). One must not fall into the fallacy of claiming inspiration for an entire work just because there is an oblique reference to it. Jude does not cite his sources by name, much less credit them with scriptural status and was very limited in his use. This is the same as Paul's citation of Greek philosophers - those works are not scripture either. Use by others apostles are quite limited too, to make specific points, and do not accord scriptural status either. Early church fathers cited Enoch, but it never passed the standards of having spiritual authority.

The Holy Spirit guided the development of the canon as promised by Christ. But man is fickle too and the Coptic maintenance of Enoch as part of ITS scripture does not equate it the same relevance and standing throughout the rest of Christianity. I have faith in the Spirit's guidance of the early church in identifying those books that were scripture. Enoch has too many strikes against it and I believe that the Holy Spirit did not change His mind and decide about Enoch because it wasn't even on His list to begin with and that it was man that kept trying to bring it in. What made it popular was its moral/exhortations nature of some of the material. This is equivalent, as pointed out in another post, to Pilgrim's Progress contains moral exhortations, but does not attain scriptural status. Remember, the canon was closely scrutinized because of the numerous other false writings coming out, so the development of the canon was essential. FF Bruce explains this process very well.

Second, it is a logical fallacy to argue that because an inspired biblical author such as Jude reports material from Jewish oral tradition or other extra-biblical sources, that those sources in their entirety must be considered accurate and theologically valid. And it should be noted that Jude does not cite his sources by name, much less credit them with scriptural status.

Finally, I could go through, line by line some of what you think is 'explained', and probably find some serious conflicts with orthodox Christian doctrines and the Bible. IIRC when I did read portions of it in the past, there were some glaring issues. There is no need for a 1 Enoch, the bible is more than adequate. The following better explains the details

http://www.irr.org/mit/lostbooks.html

Or FF Bruce "The Canon of Scripture"

2,954 posted on 04/13/2008 9:05:07 PM PDT by Godzilla (We are the land of the free because of the brave.)
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