Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
In fact as I read your last reply here you sure do vacillate like a double minded man!
1- think what you like
2- don’t hate you-
3- piy you
4- feel sorry fear your fate
5- repulsed by your beliefs
6- not important enough
7 - Cannot or WILL not tell us what Joseph Smith found to be UNTRUE in Presbyterianism.
Paint me a picture of what was UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANISM, you highly knowledgeable person!
When Jesus was here many of us were not born yet, yet he did the work vicariously for all from the beginning and those at the time, and those yet to be born to accept his gift as the Redeemer and Savior.
We were to believe and repent, be baptized to wash off the dirt of the world, and to receive the Holy Spirit and to take upon us his name.
Many do not believe that or understand the need of it even those that is very clear in the Bible that is the Lord’s instructions.
On this side many get very strong on this, but on the other side their hearts could change and now what do they do?
That is where vicarious baptism for the dead is the gift for those who did not know when on this side.
This is not a second chance for if one never received a witness of the Holy Spirit they never really were born again.
I don’t expect you to accept this, many don’t but I believe it is true, and comes from a fair and loving Heavenly Father and Savior who loves his children.
In any event, I do not think yours and my own thinking are necessarily that different, and as such it is not worth the effort of trying to banter back and forth about it trying to delineate exactly what we mean.
"Are you one of those who think that the person who only put in 10% should get the same reward as the one who put in 90%?"
If all things are equal, then probably not. But depending upon circumstances, possibly. I think a man who has virtually nothing, but gives 10% and does not eat for several days is probably rewarded at least as much as a billionaire who gives $900 million and never went hungry. I have little doubt that if I were blessed with much greater wealth, my own conscience would dictate that I give a greater percentage to help others, and would expect no greater reward.
Only God can judge our worthiness and what measure our reward should be.
NOTHING??
I know the Lord loves you and most likely if you are not evil you will find know the way ...
Alrighty then!
(I couldn’t figger it out either!)
Where is this to be found in your Scripture?
Resty, I rest my case.......
Hmm.. Well, I guess one thing I am unsure about is your use of the term “this side” So I will have to break your post down and deal with segment by segment.
You:-—”When Jesus was here many of us were not born yet, yet he did the work vicariously for all from the beginning and those at the time, and those yet to be born to accept his gift as the Redeemer and Savior.
We were to believe and repent, be baptized to wash off the dirt of the world, and to receive the Holy Spirit and to take upon us his name.”
Nothing here do I disagree with. I take take note of the fact that you mention those who were not born yet (and possibly you mean those who were never exposed to the word of God as well?).
You-— “Many do not believe that or understand the need of it even those that is very clear in the Bible that is the Lord’s instructions.
On this side many get very strong on this, but on the other side their hearts could change and now what do they do?”
For these, I see no hope. I believe all who hear the truth and are capable of understanding it, yet reject it, are lost. I am now guessing that you mean by “other side” as being after death, and I do not believe that one can be saved after their death.
You-—”That is where vicarious baptism for the dead is the gift for those who did not know when on this side.
This is not a second chance for if one never received a witness of the Holy Spirit they never really were born again.
I don’t expect you to accept this, many don’t but I believe it is true, and comes from a fair and loving Heavenly Father and Savior who loves his children.”
I do not know how the subject got onto vicarious baptism, something I have never heard of before, but I am assuming you believe in some sort of ritual, a baptism for people after they have died?
I am not going to say there is any harm in conducting such an act, but I think it is pointless. I think God is aware of the various extenuating circumstances and takes them into account when trying a soul in the balance. I believe that applies to men who never had an opprtunity to hear the Word of God as well, if that is your concern. Whether we perform some ritual on behalf of that person, or not, makes no difference, IMO, in how God would judge that soul. My sense of Justice, and belief in a Just God compell me to believe that men are judged on their own merits, and not on the actions of others. A belief in a man, who is a good man, not getting into heaven yet then getting reprieved because someone in this world does some ritual sounds entirely too much like when the RCC in the middle ages sold dispensation for sins, even for sins for people who had already died. (In other words, if you gave money to the church, you could buy a loved one’s soul out of Hell. I do not think God takes bribes.)
well, I will make a clarification. I guess if I were to split hairs, she is not EXACTLY in alignment with me on that part, but very very close.
I believe we will be shown the right way, and I guess that is true whether we ware evil or not. Unless we simply ARE evil people (and some people DO seem to be pure evil), we will find (or be shown) the right way and know that it is... but that does not mean we will necessarily follow it.
I fear there may be a subtlety here I am not explaining well, if so I apologize.
“Forced” is a strong word, and I think too strong for the situation you’re applying it too. But remember this was in an era when it was very common for non-Mormon young women to marry only with their father’s approval and often someone the father had chosen, and also to marry at 14 or 15 (or occasionally even earlier) all in compliance with state law. And certainly the young women of European royalty were still being married off to men of royal families, with the choice of pairing made entirely by their fathers for political reasons. I don’t approve of it, but it not something you ever see referred to in history books as “forced” marriage, but rather as “arranged marriage” — though it was often very clear that the young woman in question was not at all happy about the choice.
It was not forbidden when under the direction of the Lord. Joseph followers knew it only those who would be antagonist were not privy to know. They had no need to know of God’s business with his people.
"Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)
Unless you are the prophet, then you can excommunicate those lesser members for doing the same thing you are. In fact, your late prophet and seer condemned Smith. Gordon B. Hinckley said in an interview with Larry King :
Larry King: You condemn it (polygamy)?
Gordon B. Hinckley: I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.
Follow the prophet, he will never lead astray...............
Thats my job (at times)
A lot of us wonder what resty is trying to say at times too. In this case, it is probably an obscure reference to the mormon doctrine that our 'spirits', prebirthed by one of our heavenly mothers (god is polygamous too) and do not reach 'this side' until we are born physically.
Would you not like to see someone who has been so hard on another person they never knew see what the look will be when they meet them face to face and would have to say I am sorry I really did not know?
And they should be sorry who ever does that to another because of their preconceived ideas!
Why Godzilla do you think one should be able to do that and not say I am sorry if they are wrong?
They just should be able to act like nothing happen.
And this is not vindictivness it is setting thing right!
There is nothing wrong with being hard on ideas we disagree with, peoples ideas and beliefs should be tested. Understand this, that in this debate, not only are your (LDS) beliefs being challenged, but by making that challenge, we are also allowing our own beliefs be challenged. Thus on that angle, nobody is picking on anyone. One side is right, the other wrong... that is a challenge to all.
Some things could be said to get over the top from time to time, such as when someone willfully distorts or misrepresents something someone says, or attacking a persons motive without evidence, or direct personal insults (as opposed to attacks upon ideas)... but nobody can be said to be picked on in that manner because that is a sin commited by plenty on both sides and everyone will have to answer for their own tongues.
As for what you say about “Would you not like to see someone...” the answer is no. And I know that at that time, if someone has wronged me and is still burdened by the sin (not having been saved), then apologizing to me is not what they will be worrying about. They will have much bigger worries at that point. And that is a sad thing, at least to me.
The fact that the idea of watching the looks on people’s faces when they realize they are about to enter Hell will give you satisfaction, and make you feel vindicated, about makes me want to puke.
In honor of you, resty, I am changing my tagline.
Oh mannn. Look at that stupid funky A in my tagline. :<
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