Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Local and state officials entered the temple of a secretive polygamist sect late Saturday, said lawmen blockading the road to the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.
The action comes hours after local prosecutors said officials were preparing for the worst because a group of FLDS members were resisting efforts to search the structure.
The Texas Department of Public Safety trooper and Schleicher County sheriff’s deputy confirmed that officials have entered the temple but said they had no word on whether anything occurred in the effort.
The incursion into the temple caps the three-day saga of the state’s Child Protective Services agency removing at least 183 women and children from the YFZ Ranch since Friday afternoon. Eighteen girls have been placed in state custody since a 16-year-old told authorities she was married to a 50-year-old man and had given birth to his child.
Saturday evening, ambulances were brought in, said Allison Palmer, who as first assistant 51st District attorney, would prosecute any felony crimes uncovered as part of the investigation inside the compound.
“In preparing for entry to the temple, law enforcement is preparing for the worst,” Palmer said Saturday evening. They want to have “medical personnel on hand in case this were to go in a way that no one wants.”
Apparently as a result of action Saturday night at the ranch, about 10:15 p.m. Saturday, a Schleicher County school bus unloaded another group of at least a dozen more women and children from the compound.
Although members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, have provided varying degrees of cooperation to the sheriff’s deputies and Texas Rangers searching the compound, all cooperation stopped once authorities tried to search the gleaming white temple that towers over the West Texas scrub, Palmer said.
“There may be those who would oppose (entry) by placing themselves between law enforcement and the place of worship,” Palmer said Saturday afternoon. “If an agreement cannot be reached … law enforcement will have to — as gently and peaceably as possible — make entry into that place.”
Sect members consider the temple, dedicated by then-leader of the sect Warren Jeffs in January 2005 and finished many months later, off-limits to those who are not FLDS members, said Palmer, who prosecutes felony cases in Schleicher County.
Palmer said she didn’t know the size or makeup of the group inside the temple.
The earlier refusal to provide access was even more disconcerting because CPS investigators have yet to identify the 16-year-old girl or her roughly 8-month-old baby among the dozens removed from the compound, Palmer said.
“Anytime someone says, ‘Don’t look here,’” she said, “it makes you concerned that’s exactly where you need to look.”
The girl told authorities in two separate phone calls a day apart that she was married to a 50-year-old man, Dale Barlow, who had fathered her child, Palmer said.
The joint raid included the Texas Rangers, CPS, Schleicher County and Tom Green County sheriff’s deputies and game wardens from the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife.
Although CPS and Department of Public Safety officials have described the compound’s residents as cooperative, Palmer disagreed.
“Things have been a little tense, a little volatile,” she said.
Authorities removed 52 children Friday afternoon and 131 women and children overnight Friday. About 40 of the children are boys, said CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.
No further children have been taken into state custody since Friday, when 18 girls were judged to have been abused or be at imminent risk for abuse. CPS has found foster homes for the girls, Meisner said, and will place them after concluding its investigation.
Meisner declined to comment on the fate of the 119 other children and said authorities were still searching the ranch for others Saturday evening.
“They’re in the process of looking,” she said. “They’re literally about halfway through.”
1 Samuel
1 Now there was a certain man of Ramathaim-zophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite:
2 And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.
3 And this man went up out of his city yearly to worship and to sacrifice unto the Lord of hosts in Shiloh. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, the priests of the Lord, were there.
4 ¶ And when the time was that Elkanah offered, he gave to Peninnah his wife, and to all her sons and her daughters, portions:
5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the Lord had shut up her womb.
6 And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the Lord had shut up her womb.
7 And as he did so year by year, when she went up to the house of the Lord, so she provoked her; therefore she wept, and did not eat.
8 Then said Elkanah her husband to her, Hannah, why weepest thou? and why eatest thou not? and why is thy heart grieved? am not I better to thee than ten sons?
When your religion is built on this.
You are in the wrong religion
The OT was not the gospel Sunny!:)
Judges 8
29 ¶ And Jerubbaal the son of Joash went and dwelt in his own house.
30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
31 And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son, whose name he called Abimelech.
You may consider rethinking that assertion....Jos Smith was married to 14 yr old Helen Mar Kimball, in a "Celestial" Marriage.....
Please clarify for us, are celestial marriages consumated or not?
_____________
Helen wrote:
"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he (my father) offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: how cruel this seemed to my mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder, for she had already taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more."- Helen Mar Whitney Journal, Helen Mar Autobiography, Womans Exponent, 1880 and recently reprinted in A Woman's view
In fact, Joseph Smith gave young Helen only 24 hours to decide on whether or not to marry him. Of this, Helen wrote:
"[my father] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty four hours. ... I was sceptical - one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast me off, and this was the only convincing proof That I had of its being right."
The next morning, Joseph Smith finally appeared himself to explain the "law of Celestial Marriage" and claim his teen bride. In her memoir, Helen wrote, "After which he said to me, 'if you take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred.' This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."Helen also writes about her mother's reaction to all of this:
"None but God and his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart - when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied 'If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say."
"She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had yet seen her fifteenth summer, following the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was hidden from me."
Helen thought her marriage to Joseph Smith was only dynastic. But to her surprise, it was more. Helen confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it."
"Mormon Polygamy: A History" by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.
___________
The question begs - where does Smith find a Biblical basis for declaring she can ensure the salvation of her family by consenting, and what type of person would suggest such a thing?
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.Th bible says she was a wife.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.Thus we see yet another "Defense" come crashing down, face it Abraham was polygamous, and was approved by God while he was, the only reason Moses who was also polygamous mentioned it was that the wanted to make it clear the the sons of the concubines were sent away before Abraham died and had no part in Issac's inheritance. This backs up my postulate here that more people in the Bible would be recorded as being polygamous except it was as common as dirt and unremarkable.
What you and third party are implying countradicts what Helen Mar Kimball reported in the Woman’s Exponent personal account!
So who was the "cohort?" (Hyrum Smith, Joey's brother).
Who attempted to do the direct personal convincing of Emma Smith? (Actually, I said Joey Smith, but it was actually Hyrum as well).
Who pieced together D&C 132? (This is where I was off-base...I said it was the cohort, but Hyrum actually only suggested that since they were already highly focused on this topic, that Joey should use the Urim and Thummim to get a revelation as nothing was yet written). So I was off-base in that I said it was "written" by another...I should have said "spoken" by another...what I got confused about on the "writing" part was merging together numerous other pieces of information:
(1) This revelation wasn't a sudden "lightning bolt" experience for Smith: His Secretary, William Clayton, said that during the last year of Joseph's life they were seldom together alone when the prophet did not talk about the subject. (B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant, p. 7, citing Clayton's Testimony, Feb. 16, 1874, in Andrew Jenson, "Plural Marriage," Historical Record 6, May 1887, p. 226). [Kind of brings to mind the Willie Nelson song, "You are always on my mind. You are always on my mind."]
(2) That being the case, it was indeed, as I said, an apologetic targeted only for Emma to--as I said before--convince her of Smith adding on to his harem: What attributions back this up? Hardy wrote It is clear that the 1843 revelation was a selective accumulation of the prophet's thought on the subject. (Solemn Covenant, p. 10)--and he footnoted Clayton's affidavite, Feb. 16, 1874, which mentioned that Hyrum Smith asked Joseph to dictate the 1843 revelation by using the Urim and Thummim...and that Joey refused, saying it was unnecessary on account of his knowing 'the revelation from beginning to end.'
(Maybe Joey had already e-downloaded the edict from God. Wanna tell us how Hyrum Smith knew enough from conversations with Joey that something was needed in writing, & therefore he suggested the Urim and Thummim, yet Joey could claim (to paraphrase): "Nope. Don't need it. I've already got in mind, from beginning to end, what needs to be communicated."
(3) I knew that a cohort of Joey had written something down as part of this "drama," I just didn't remember what. It was actually Bishop Whitney. After Emma's reaction to the revelational news from the Smith brothers was to burn it, according to Brigham Young, Smith had handed the revelation to Bishop Whitney, and he wrote it all off [in other words she didn't burn the only copy...Here's the attribution for that]:
Brigham Young: Emma took that revelation, supposing she had all there was; but Joseph had wisdom enough to take care of it, and he had handed the revelation to Bishop Whitney, and he wrote it all off....She went to the fireplace and put it in, and put the candle under it and burnt it, and she thought that was the end of it, and she will be damned as sure as she is a living woman. Joseph used to say that he would have her hereafter, if he had to go to hell for her, and he will have to go to hell for her as sure as he ever gets her (Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p.159).
Here's the attribution that it was cohort Hyrum whose communication attempted to convince Emma: (Dictated from Joseph Smith to William Clayton): On the morning of the 12th of July, 1843; Joseph and Hyrum Smith came into the office....They were talking on the subject of plural marriage. Hyrum said to Joseph, "If you will write the revelation on celestial marriage, I will take it and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and you will hereafter have peace." Joseph smiled and remarked, "You do not know Emma as well as I do." ... Joseph then said, "Well, I will write the revelation and we shall see." ... Hyrum then took the revelation to read to Emma. Joseph remained with me in the office until Hyrum returned. When he came back, Joseph asked how he had succeeded. Hyrum replied that he had never received a more severe talking to in his life....Joseph quietly remarked, "I told you you did not know Emma as well as I did." Joseph then put the revelation in his pocket.... Two or three days after the revelation was written Joseph related to me and several others that Emma had so teased, and urgently entreated him for the privilege of destroying it, that he became so weary of her teasing, and to get rid of her annoyance, he told her she might destroy it and she had done so, but he had consented to her wish in this matter to pacify her, realizing that he...could rewrite it at any time if necessary (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Introduction to vol. 5).
BTW, first of all, if God had communicated something to Joseph, why was he having to be persuaded by his cohort brother to write it down? (Wanna tell us how many other revelations from the paranormal beyond Joseph failed to write down?)
And then as a second series of related questions: Wanna explain that once it was written down, how it is that the Mormon "First Presidency" administration works slower than a drunken meandering wagontrain to make sure the grassroots gets this "lightning bolt" from God? Why did it take 9 years to pass it on for all to see? Why did it take 33 years to put it into LDS "Scripture?"
You have proof of the intents of these men long dead? I thought not.
As to "intent," I was citing author B. Carmon Hardy (book, Solemn Covenant, p. 9): Because of the commotions secret plural relationships created, Joseph was persuaded in mid-1843 to reduce the revelation on polygamy to writing. Although shown to Emma and others at the time in hopes they would be converted, the document was not made public until 1852 and was not formally included in the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants until 1876.
The intent was clearly to cover up already chewed-over land--existing "relationships" that Smith was already involved in. As Smith's widow told Clayton, it was the secret things which had cost Joseph and Hyrum their lives. (Clayton's Nauvoo Journal, Aug 15, 1844; and according to Hardy, the allegations of secrecy mentioned at the trial of Sidney Rigdon in Times and Seasons 5, Oct 1, 1844, p. 644).
Kind of puts the Smith Brothers' martyrdom in a different light, doesn't it? [Not only knowing that Smith went down killing and wounding his attackers with a weapon he had, but even more relevant to this discussion, knowing that his widow tied deaths to originating in trying to shut the door on the expository light of Smith's undercover "relationships": ...in early 1844...[William] Law put his arms about the prophet's neck, tearfully pleaded that he throw the entire business of plurality over...Some of this [dissent] arose from the sense of betrayal an associate like William Law could feel. Law had previously stood by Joseph, publicly denying rumors of church-sanctioned polygamy. By the spring of 1844, however, the church's leadership was rent with ugliness and accusation...Joseph was confronted with the publication by several disaffected members of the Nauvoo Expositor...the paper was primarily an attack on the personal morality of the leader and his brother Hyrum, including the revelation about the practice of polygamy. The seduction of young women, the ruination of innocent reputations, and the secrecy of sexual liaisons in the name of religion were all charged. (Hardy, Solemn Covenant, pp. 9, 11)]
Abraham took Hagar and had sexual union with her. She remained the slave of Sarah. You cannot argue doctrine from the English translation of the Hebrew or Greek, for the English is not the original language of Scripture and translators were not “inspired”, and when the word is used which is translated “wife” it can be simply woman.
Sarah was concubine, then, to Abraham, by your reasoning without the HEbrew and using faulty English, for the same word is used of her as Hagar and Keturah.
Abraham’s union with Hagar as an ‘ishyah to him was not lawful, and the world suffers greatly for the dastardly deed. -Sarah also suffered great grief for her part in that, and she was a much wiser woman in her latter end than at that time, cause hindsight is always better than foresight.
Just because God worked through Abraham to bring Jesus Christ into the world as the New Creation Man to Redeem the world, there is no reason to emulate the wrongs of Abraham, as I have said before, in other posts and in other ways -lest you want the same consequences.
if you translate the word ‘ishyah the same way for Sarah, as for Hagar and for Keturah, then you have Sarah a concubine, which is a sexual union word, anyway, but the original is ‘ishyah. for all three women, and Abraham was monogomous for all of his adult years but for the time he used Hagar as ‘ishyah, and she bore him Ishmael, his firstborn son.
When He took Keturah as his ‘ishyah, Sarah was dead.
so please, stop showing that you have no biblical literacy by foolish statements like you have been making.
Sarah, Hagar, and Keturah each were called “woman/ishyah”, to Abraham, and it is translated these ways, from the Hebrew:
AV — wife 425, woman 324, one 10, married 5, female 2, misc 14 http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H0802&t=kjv
So you have a dilemma. Abraham went into Hagar at Sarah’s insistence, but YHWH said send her away.
Abraham was not husband to Hagar if he sent her away.
the NT does say “he that is joined to a harlot is one flesh”, does it not? -yes it does, So all adultery and or fornication is marraige, in your mind, by that?
That God brought Adam only one wife from one rib taken because He knew what was best for mankind.
There is only sorrow and heartache in fallen Adam kind whenever he tries to go God one better.
=That’s what I say to you.
Now, try emulating Jesus Christ and remarking on what he said, for you’ll never get brownie points from your Creator by pointing to fallen man’s actions, and then by emulating him in any way.
Please ping me. I’m lost and can’t find my way home. I ping only:’)
When the feds were seeking out Mormon "cohabs" during the 1880s...according to one author...Nothing was considered off-limits when it came to searches by government agents (B. Carmon Hardy, The Solemn Covenant, p. 49) [I recommend folks get this 1992 book]
Jacob 2:24 says, “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”
Please, explain to me how you can sit there with a straight face and defend a practice which, in your own Book of Mormon, the Lord says is abominable.
Wrong subject!
Many here want to deny the interaction the Jehovah had with man on earth.
further none here know completely all the trantsanction that have taken place on earth.
There is Enoch who also had records and we have very little account of this exceptional servant.
Moses gave a recap but there is more to come forth in the Lord’s own due time.
So many cases and events are not totally know what took place so the the books on so many events is not closed yet!
Bingo! Even before 1900, one of Brigham Young's grandsons, Eugene Young, was publicly railing in an article published in The North American Review about LDS pushing of polygamy and Brigham's doctrine of blood atonement. Re: LDS-Muslim resemblance, consider this quote from a 19th century LDS General Authority who has a Utah city named after him (Heber City): (Heber C. Kimball in the Tabernacle, Feb. 1, 1857: "They [his wives] have got to live their religion, serve their God, and do right as well as myself. Suppose that I lose the whole of them before I go into the spiritual world, but that I have been a good, faithful man all the days of my life, and lived my religion, and had favor with God, and was kind to them, do you think I will be destitute there? No. The Lord says there are more there than there are here. They have been increasing there; they increase there a great deal faster than they do here, because there is no obstruction. They do not call upon the doctors to kill their offspring. In this world very many of the doctors are studying to diminish the human race. In the spiritual world...we will go to Brother Joseph...and he will say to us, 'Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?' 'They are back yonder; they would not follow us.' 'Never mind,' says Joseph, 'here are thousands; have all you want.'" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 209)
Don't you all see? With the poor heavenly neighborhood Muslim martyrs inherit, why, they'll be limited to a 72-virgin quota. But the Mormon general authorities promise you an unlimited supply of wives...'have all you want,' he says!
Jacob 2:24 says, “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.”
When David took it upon himself and it was NOT Sanction by the Lord yet it was abominable to.
you will read account where the priest warn David that the Lord did not sanction some of those wives & concubines.
It is what is called in law the “i’s dotted and the “t’s crossed and this is what David did not do, he took it upon himself without the Lord’s blessing!
Searches are pretty useless when the people that you want to search are allowed to keep their secrets in a designated building that is immune from searchers.
Was the temple where they kept the little girl break-in beds upstairs in the sacred Temple?
"The state also found beds on the top floor of the temple, where authorities suspect that older men had sex with under-age girls, court documents released on Wednesday said."
I would appreciate if you could present a link whereby it states that it was not the act itself, but the fact that it was done without sanction of God, which made it abominable.
Further, explain away this passage if you will.
Jacob 2:27 “Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.”
Seems pretty straightforward.. “not any man”.. not “only men who are sanctioned”.
How cool is that!!?!
I'll sign up right now!
Careful what you wish for:’)
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