With TWO physical bodies!
Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Jesus Christ
1 Ne. 11: 13, 15, 18, 20
13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
• • •
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
• • •
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
• • •
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.
2 Ne. 17: 14
14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Alma 7: 10
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
To give you another further understanding of what I'm talking about, I'll explain our view of the 3 apostles on this continent who were promised the same thing. Here is all the references to them. I hope you look them up, I won't post the text, it's too many references, but If you read them, especially the ones toward the end when they were taken away from the people due to wickedness, you will see what I'm talking about. It might sound contrived to you, but it's miraculous and wonderful that God works through men the way he does.
Here are the references from the BOM.
3 Ne. 28: 1-6 Christ grants three disciples’ desire to tarry until his coming, as did John.
3 Ne. 28: 7-9 shall never taste of death, sorrow.
3 Ne. 28: 10 shall have fulness of joy.
3 Ne. 28: 13-17 are caught up into heaven.
3 Ne. 28: 18, 23 minister unto people.
3 Ne. 28: 19-22 endure persecution.
3 Ne. 28: 25 names not given.
3 Ne. 28: 26 (Morm. 8: 11) have ministered unto Mormon.
3 Ne. 28: 27-29 to minister to Gentiles, Jews, scattered tribes, all nations.
3 Ne. 28: 30 can show themselves to whomever it seems to them good.
3 Ne. 28: 32 (4 Ne. 1: 5) to do marvelous works.
3 Ne. 28: 36-40 change wrought upon their bodies.
3 Ne. 28: 39 are sanctified in flesh, Satan has no power over them.
4 Ne. 1: 14 only disciples of original twelve who still tarry.
Morm. 8: 10 are taken from people because of wickedness.
Morm. 8: 11 have ministered unto Moroni.
John the baptist held the keys to the priesthood of Aaron, not John the beloved.
Peter, James and John, held the keys of the Kingdom, and it was these three that laid hands on Oliver and Joseph and restored the Melchesidek priesthood.
Things are done in order, as they always have been. I would ask the same question to you... why did Moses and Elias appear to the Savior on the mount of transfiguration, with Peter James and John present? Same thing. Keys of the kingdom.
In part, it's because (a) you don't know Hebrew; and (b) you've isolated 2 Sam 12 from 2 Sam 16 (& possibly 2 Sam 6). But certainly even if we agree on what to call these women, 2 Sam 12:8 is still troublesome.
Allow me to explain: First of all the Hebrew word used of these women in 2 Sam 12 is "issah"--which can mean either woman or wife and is even used in one verse in Judges for "concubine." Secondly, Nathan prophesies, among other things, that the Lord is going to take these women and give them to one who is close to you--lying with them in broad daylight. (2 Sam. 12:11)
Now when did this prophesy come to fruition? 2 Sam. 16:21-22 says that Ahithophel tells David's son, Absalom, to "Lie with your father's concubines...So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he lay with his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."
The word here for "concubines" is pileges.
So, my main point? Simply put, in context, these women are "concubines." Maybe even the "slave girls" referenced in 2 Sam. 6:22.
Biblical support:
(1) 2 Sam. 16:21-22 identifies these women as "concubines."
(2) The Hebrew word used in 2 Sam. 12 to describe these same women is Issah--which can mean "woman" & is used in Judges 19:26 to mean "concubine." In fact, Issah is even used in Gen 7:2 to describe the female mate of animals. [So while it is at times used in an endearing way (like "bride" in Gen 29:21 and Deut. 20:7), it isn't consisently the case.]
(3) When David's wife, Michal was upset with David for disrobing in the sight of slave girls (2 Sam. 6:20), the implication in 2 Sam. 6:23 is that they may not have slept together from that point onward...And David says then, "I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor." (2 Sam. 6:22) It's possible here that David is projecting that he will choose to sleep with slave girls rather than his wife...these slave girls will "honor" him--something his wife isn't doing (she accused him of public vulgarity)--but in doing so, he is "humiliating himself in his own eyes" in engaging in an "undignified" manner.
That Still Doesn't Clear Everything Up
Now, suppose we agree these women are David's concubines. In what way does that elevate my point, but in what way is it still troublesome?
Well, it elevates my point in that I contend that God created only one woman for Adam--not a harem. And that God has seen marriage as an institution of one man and one woman. (And I'll note that your church general authorities now agree with me on that point).
If these women are indeed "concubines" as 2 Sam. 16:21-22 says (and the interpretation is open for that in 2 Sam. 12 as well)...then marriage as a one-woman enterprise is still protected.
Still, where is the "troublesome" dimension of this? The verse you pointed out, 2 Sam. 12:8, clearly says that Nathan is speaking for God, & that God gave these women into his arms. Therefore, God was assuming responsibility for placing concubines in David's household! (That's the part I can't fully explain)
Why did he do this?
I would first surmise it's for the same reason he "allowed" Caleb & Abram & Jacob to have concubines without calling down his judgment. At least in those other cases, there is nothing indicative that God condoned or directed it.
Beyond that, it's speculation. For example, I could speculate that these concubines were indeed the "slave girls" referenced in 2 Sam. 6. If that's the case, the Bible hasn't left us clueless that even when David took them as concubines, he himself knew that what he was doing was "undignified"--bringing shame & humiliation even in his own eyes (2 Sam. 6:22). (The message then for the rest of us is not to engage in humiliating, undignified sexual behavior)
I could also futher speculate that God allowed David to sleep with the concubines because he knew of the rift between David and Michal--one that would extend to their procreative life (2 Sam. 6:23). God knew that the eventual sexual pathway David chose would lead to two deaths--that of Uriah the Hittite and that of his own infant son. Was God opening a "fork in the sexual road" that would give him an option of the lesser of two evils? I draw this speculation from Nathan: "And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes?" (2 Sam. 12:8-9) (The lesson for the rest of us might be that if we engage in adultery that leads to say, an abortion, that is both a heavy price for the child to pay for our sin...plus to murder someone to take their wife despises the Word of the Lord.)
But all this speculation only opens up new problematic doors. For example, the fact that Bathsheba is Jesus' grandmother several times over. (Why would God try to divert David's sexual energy from someone who would be an ancestor of Jesus?)
In the final view of things, what does seem to make some sense to me is that even when adultery is involved (Bathsheba); even when death results due to adultery (Uriah & David's child); even when concubines/slave girls/mistresses are used for sexual purposes; even when marital relations run dry (Michal) when the husband is no longer honored; God is not surprised by our sin. He works in the very midst of our sin. He doesn't cover it up (David is humiliated & Nathan shines a light on his sin); and yet He eventually does cover it up thru the blood of the Lamb ("The Lord has taken away your sin"--2 Sam. 12:13...but not all the consequences of your sin).
The key thing in all of this is not to "glorify" either marital polygamy or the sexual utilization of concubines. I stand by my contention that no verse in Scripture shows God as directing or condoning marital polygamy--but that He indeed "allowed" it to occur. The institution of marriage in God's eyes has been & remains sacred. (The fact that I can't fully explain God's view of concubines beyond marriage in every case is just another reminder that I don't it all...that we "see thru a glass darkly").
Quoting scriptures is fine, but how about Texas Law Enforcement? Including Game and Wildlife?
Cudo’s to them. It seems they can serve a warrant and enforce the law without burning down the house.
It seems to me this thread has gotten far from the original story.
If I was in charge....yes.
IMO, the state of Texas didn't want the FLDS to move to Texas. I believe, since they couldn't do anything about it, they waited until this sect made a mistake. Now they've taken 400 children into the CPA system saying they are or will be in a dangerous situation.
This was their legal loophole. Whether these people will move on and/or get their children back, is yet to be seen.
Adam was the one and only human kind/spirit/being, son of God [Luke 3:38; Malachi 2:15], when His body was formed from the elements of this earth’s creation and YHWH [”LIFE/BREATH”] breathed into the body of formed human flesh the breath of “life/YHWH” and Adam became a living soul.
Adam was commanded to multiply “Adam, son of God”, as the male and female [one Adam, two persons: Genesis 5:2] by the seed formed/created in “Adam”, in the beginning.
The multiplication of “Adam, son of God”, as male and female persons [by the living/alive as sons of God seed -Malachi 2:15], was the process by which YHWH was to get His human being temple, in which His Glory would dwell.
Haggai 2 explains the glory of the first human being temple “not made with hands” for that Glory to indwell, and the second human being temple “not made with hands”, for the Glory to indwell. The Stone laid in “Zion”, at the incarnation, is the Chief Foundation Stone for that second human being temple, for the Glory, in parable. And Haggai 2 explains the reason why Adam, the dead in spirit [former son of God], cannot approach the unseen YHWH with any offering for his own redemption, to be acceptable and clean, and a son of God, again. The defilement of Adam is irrevocable. The Atonement and adoption was planned before we were created and typed in the created temple in heaven, which temple/tabernacle was copied by Moses, and by David, to be a teacher of the planned redemption, by.
All God’s created sons are His temples/houses “not made with hands”, for His Glory to indwell. In heaven there are many “houses/temples” in which the unseen Father dwells [John chapter 14].
Jesus went “to the cross” to make us [who are born defiled in Adam] clean, in our souls/persons, by the Atonement, so that we can be “dressed” new [=born again in Spirit, which is the adoption Spirit given us], and then, have the hope for the resurrection and regeneration of our bodies of flesh, to wear forever, as “new garments” for the Glory of the unseen Father to dwell in.
By that Spirit of adoption we are then made sons of God, of the human being kind, in the New Man name.
Look at my replies -I say no such thing.
He is YHWH come in flesh of second human being creation.
Isaiah 59 clearly says YHWH saw no ‘ ‘Isyh” on earth to bring forth justice, so He donned the garments of vengeance -Kinsman garments- to come in flesh of second huamn being creation and to do the jsutice for this earth that no dead in spirit as a son of God Adam person could do.
He is EL-ELOHE-ISRAEL, as the Son of God, which is “GOD-MIGHTY GOD-ISRAEL, a second human being creation Firstborn -true ‘Isyh for earth: brother to Adam so that He could do the biblical duty of Kinsman/Redeemer to Adam -the dead in spirit son of God- and to his seed and kingdom.
But He was always to come, from the beginning of creation, and He was the “Son of Man in heaven” who was seen by Enoch [Enoch 1, Ethiopian Enoch]as “hidden in God from the beginning”, an “alter ego/another same self” of the Head of Days/Ancient of Days/God the Word/the Great Glory, who was to come [to redeem his lost sons, for the Glory, as Kinsman, and in whose image Adam is made, and who was with God and who was God, from the beginning.
He has no beginning of days, no Father, no mother, no genealogy, as the Son of God [Hebrews 7], for He is “YHWH SEEN”, whose Day of Atonement Abraham “saw” and named “Jerusalem” by, in Genesis 22.
He is the Person of the Word. He is the Creator of all things. He is come in human flesh of the second creation, in a body prepared in the womb of a virgin.
His flesh had a beginning, though it was planned from the beginning of creation for our True Mercy Seat -which Moses typed- and that beginning was the 24th day of the ninth month [the eve before Hannakuh begins, but it was prophesied long before Hannakuh was established, in Haggai 2].
Melche was Shem -The [True history] Book of Jasher/Upright tells us. Shem was “firstborn’ of earth; king of righteousness/king of peace. From the creation of Adam -down through the ages by his multiplication, until Jesus Christ, there was a line of “firstborn” for earth, but none could continue “in Adam”, nor fulfill the office and serve justice for earth, and represent and intercede for all his sons before the Glory above, as Adam had first been created to do.
Jesus Christ, as the second Man, received the title of Firstborn of earth from the Father, and He everlives to make intercession for His own adopted seed [adopted by the finished, accepted work of the Atonement] -whosoever will.
Isaiah 59 explains the matter. Isaiah 9 tells us He is the “Mighty God” [Israel is His name as the Mighty God/Firstborn of earth]
The tribe of Levi served as firstborn in Israel, instead of each patriarch of the tribes serving as firstborn, which is the “order of Melchidezek”.
Firstborn serves as high king and high priest over the kingdom. It’s the patriarchal order established at creation. Jesus Christ is now the “Everlasting Father/Firstborn” of earth, and there is never to be another, for He ever lives.
Whoever is adopted by His Spirit [is born again from above] calls Him “Father” of the second creation of human being kind.
He promised to never leave us or forsake us, and when He went to the cross to atone for us, as High Priest, He promised “I will not leave you orphans”.
Our [if we are born again in Spirit] God/Chief/Firstborn/Father lives! -And He is YHWH in flesh, our own “Kinsman/Redeemer”.
I know what you believe about Christ -I have lots of Mormon relatives and made it a point to learn what you believed, years ago -but alas! it is pointless, as I have found the belief an evolving thing, in which the former, documented beliefs are forgotten as the evolutiion continues. -but I am not going to argue those points, as it is fruitless.
Let me tell you what He is, though, from His Word, which is so important to us who are so dead in Adam.
He is YHWH =LIFE/BREATH, the everlasting. self existing Spirit, in the second Person.
YHWH is One YHWH, three Persons, from everlasting to everlasting, and HE is the second and only “SEEN” Person in YHWH, for He is the One and only Similitude of YHWH seen by any created being, from the beginning of creation to all eternity.
He is The Word who made all things.
He is come in the flesh of the second Man creation. He is dual natured, by choice: YHWH/MAN
He is the Everlasting Father/Firstborn of the second Man creation.
He is the only created human being brother to Adam
Because you and I are “Adam” persons, and because Adam is one Adam kind/name/being, and because our first father sinned and we fell in him, then there is no possibility that you and I can ever approach the Holy Creator and have His Glory indwelling us as His sons.
In Adam all die. We died in our father/firstborn/head’s fall, as sons of God for the Glory; and we can’t offer anything for our redemption to get back the Glory and live in His presense as His sons again.
No Adam person can approach the Glory or have the Glory which was forfeit, in the fall, of our head.
So; YHWH prepared a body of Kinsman flesh to come walk in, in which He bought our redemption. He offers cleansing of our souls and then new garments of the Spirit of regeneration and the body of regeneration [made in His New Man image at the resurrection and/or at the time of the rapture of His Church/Congregation], which are the bodies in which we will receive a share of the Glory that only Israel, the New Man, gets -and promises to share with His sons.
We will be filled with the Glory of the unseen Father forever, as His second human being ‘house/temple’; and He shares the ransomed, regenerated kingdom -which we lost in Adam- as our inheritance, to share with Him in His New Man name.
He knew we would fall before He made us, but He made the plan for our redemptionm before He made Adam; and whoever seeks Him, who lights every man that comes into the world, wil be led to know Christ, the Living Spirit. He is typed in the Word as the Living Waters, which all the thirsty can drink of, and never thirst again.
Joseph had normal marital relations after Mary brought forth her firstborn son, The Word of God says so. He took her as his wife, and He “knew her not” “until” “she brought forth her firstborn son”
Jesus had womb brothers and sisters. They did not believe in Him until He rose from the dead. After He rose from the dead He appeared to His womb brothers, and they believed in Him.
Mary had a body prepared in her womb by the Holy Spirit for the LORD from heaven to dress Himself in. Just as Adam’s body was prepared in the earth by the Holy Spirit, but was lifeless, and YHWH breathed breath into that body and Adam became a living soul; So the Holy Spirit prepared a New Man body in the womb of a virgin, brand new, and YHWH, in the Person of the Word, stripped Himself “bare naked” of the Glory He had “with the Father from the beginning” [as Isaiah 52:10 says, in the Hebrew] and dressed his stripped of the Glory self in that prepared flesh, to be our Kinsman/Redeemer according to the biblical law of Kinsman.
YHWH is our Redeemer, and He is made that by coming in flesh of second Man creation, to ransom us and our lost inheritance, for the Glory to indwell.
But that was WAY back then!!
Not in the 1880's!!
(Resty speak)
I’ve heard guys brag before; but this tops them all!
I’m envious!
I have no jackhammer; just a Sawz-all!
Nice assortment of, ahem, bits.
Like what did Joseph Smith learn about PRESBYTERIANISM that was UNTRUE?
Seems pretty foundational to me - every LDS child should learn this at momma's knee.
I'll bet the FLDS folks know!
With TWO physical bodies!
With TWO physical bodies!
Acts 7:54-60
54. When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him.
55. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
56. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
57. At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him,
58. dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
60. Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.
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