Austin owned energy company has plug-in hybrids(claim 100 MPG)

WFAA-TV ^ | March 28, 2008 | Gary Reaves

[Dane]

It’s hard to say what sounds better: 100 miles-per-gallon, $1 a gallon fuel, or a car you only have to fill up once a month.

All that is the promise of a new type of car, and this one isn't a far off pipe dream, it’s something you should be able to buy in just 2 years. And it runs on fuel made in the USA.

The long yellow extension cord isn’t the only thing that makes the Toyota Prius Bob Breeze, and his co-workers, drive special. The Austin Energy Company's fleet cars have the one feature everybody wants.

“Definitely, you will get better than 100 miles per gallon,” said Breeze.

That’s more than double a regular Prius.

[Charles Martel]

When there are more hybrid/electric cars than gas/diesel vehicles, the govt will raise taxes on electricity to pay for the roads.

Yep, something like that. I'm still wondering how they'll determine which kilowatt-hours are being used as "motor fuel" substitute, and which are being used to power the residence. Single-family homes could have split metering and a dedicated charging outlet, but places such as large apartment complexes would be a headache to modify for split power.

In many areas, off-street parking isn't even possible. Covered parking with electrical power is even more problematic. Since there's no way to apply those road-use taxes as "fairly" as the per-gallon fuel purchase tax, the government will take the easy way out and sock it to everybody, regardless of where they live, how much they drive, and so on.

[Nailbiter]

To the people pushing this agenda, it does not matter, they will have achieved their goal.

[oneolcop]

I almost spit out my coffee

[rb22982]

Gasoline energy isn’t very efficient in a combustion engine though(25-30%). Electric energy is far more efficient. That isn’t factored into your equation. $1 per gallon equiv is probably close to correct. Not to mention I’d rather pay a US electric company than send money overseas which is what buying oil does. There is plenty off peak hours to charge these car batteries (anytime after 5pm)

[rb22982]

There is plenty of load available off peak (after 5pm). I don’t think you’d have many of these charging during work hours. Most would be afterwards.

[Dane]

I am hoping for algae-based biodiesel, because it gives us the best of all worlds.

That's very interesting also. I just want America off OPEC oil and as you can see you have some naysayers on FR, who basically are akin to the people who thought the car would never replace the horse, and then you have some who have their own intersts they want to protect by putting down the alternatives.

[rb22982]

and your electric bill would triple.

Would you rather pay a US Electric company or send money overseas to foreign countries with oil? Kw/H cost is a lot more stable also than gasoline is.

[rb22982]

The current price for oil is mainly due to a weak American Dollar (Thanks to the Federal Reserve.) and the World-wide speculative market for Commodities.

Factor out the weak dollar and oil is still at $70/barrel, up from $10 a decade ago so no I wouldn't say its mainly due to the weak dollar although that certainly hasn't helped.

[norwaypinesavage]

"Electric energy is far more efficient."

Why don't you provide some data to support this. Make sure you include transmission line loss, charging loss, battery self discharge, inverter loss, aerodynamics, air conditioning, heating, braking losses that exceed the battery charge rate, tire drag, driveline losses, bearing seal drag, and motor back emf heating.

[HangnJudge]

My ZAP PK is 100% electric

My favorite efficient transport is...



Piaggio BV 250
~80 MPG
Not so useful for rainy/cold weather...

For that I use a 1998 Dodge Dakota 1998

[CharlesWayneCT]

1 gallon of gas has 36 kilowatts of energy.

A car is about 25% efficient (the most efficient get closer to 30% at their peak — this is a trick the Prius uses to increase gas mileage). In reality the way a lot of people drive they are lucky to get this much. Wikepedia claims “Most gasoline-fueled internal combustion engines, even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, have a mechanical efficiency of about 20%”.

If we take 25% as the number, that means we get about 9 kwatts of power out of each gallon of gasoline. At 10cents per kilowatt, that’s about 90 cents, close to the dollar they mentioned.

The efficiency of an electric charger is typically above 90%, and the efficiency of an electric motor is also typically above 90%. The Prius gets between 85% and 90% efficiency in it’s generator-to-battery-to-motor transfer. So the 1-dollar figure is probably accurate.

Some others have noted that if everybody traded in tomorrow for one of these, we’d have trouble with the power grid. But of course, there won’t be that many available, nor will people convert quickly anyway. I’d be surprised if you could get a million of these on the road in a year. (The Prius put about 50-100 thousand on the road each year).

[norwaypinesavage]

You are still comparing a 25% efficient IC automobile to a 100% efficient electric powered vehicle. About a third of the “wasted” energy in an IC powered vehicle goes to heat, some of which is used to heat the car. Another third goes into friction which has similar components to the IC vehicle. The Electric vehicle still has aerodynamic losses, frictional losses in the drivetrain, seals, tires, bearings. There are 40 (39.7) KW of energy in a gallon of typical gas.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Now things get harder. First, my conversion sheet said about 37 kw in a gallon of gas, but I’ve seen other numbers as well.

I was using a 90% efficient electric car, but you are right, that didn’t take into account friction losses, and I should have.

But once we get into things like heat capture, we also need to start taking into account certain additions made to any typical electric car that don’t appear in a gas car, like regenerative braking.

Braking is one of the losses in a typical american car, but that’s what takes the losses down to 20% from the 25% number I like to use. Still, an electric car will recover 50-75% of the braking losses, depending on how hard you have to brake.

And while heat can be used to heat a car in cold climates, in hotter climates the heat is a nuisance which requires additional equipment, and associated losses, to get rid of, such as the radiator fan and the radiator system.

At some point, it just becomes easier to compare actual performance, by adding up the monetary costs of operation of the two vehicles. The monetary costs do not translate completely into energy costs, but they are a good approximation.

The true wildcard in that comparison is the need of the government to pay for the roads. Right now, between 25-33% of the cost of gasoline goes to the government in the form of taxes. Already one state has decided to INCREASE fees for hybrids to recapture the lost revenue they expect from the lower use of gasoline. But most places aren’t worried yet — and will be if they have significant numbers of electric cars.

At some point I do expect to have electric cars, and I do expect the government to find another form of taxation. There are ways that would be “fairer”. A pure tax system wouldn’t be trying to push moral objectives, so a tax based on the number of miles you drive would be a better system — and could include a factor for the weight of the vehicle, since heavier vehicles require additional maintenance.

I think everybody should be allowed to own the car of their choice, and their taxes should reflect the actual societal costs of those choices, but only those directly related to those choices.

[rb22982]

Here is one detailed post that shows 350% more efficiency for electric. ICE is very inefficient. I'll look for more later but electric car efficiency vs gas is not really even a question as it's (gas) about as bad as it gets. Diesel alone is about 50% more efficient than gasoline.

[rb22982]

Prius sold almost 200k units last year and this year expects more. It’s not a pure electric car though like the volt will be and the Tesla is.

[tatown]

“Name one.”

I visited two small refineries in Los Angeles three weeks ago that were down, due to low crack spread (which is due to weakening demand for refined product).

If you don’t believe it, take a look at the latest refinery utilization rates ~82%. Again this is due to weakening demand of refined product.

[norwaypinesavage]

"Braking is one of the losses in a typical american car, but that’s what takes the losses down to 20% from the 25% number I like to use. Still, an electric car will recover 50-75% of the braking losses"

First of all, braking losses are the same in all ICE cars, not just American. Second, electric vehicles usually don't come close to recovering 50 to 75% of the braking energy. The problem is that regenerative braking is limited to the rate the vehicle can RE-charge the batteries. Current battery technology (no pun intended) limits this to a small fraction of the needed brake energy. In addition, regenerative braking is limited by the total battery charge, as well. Batteries are often fully charged in a hybrid.

I am not fundamentally opposed to EVs. I helped design one. However battery technology seriously limits current EV designs. The cars must be small and light. That makes them dangerous and of limited usages. You can make ICE cars small, light, and dangerous, and they will get the same $ per mile as EVs, probably more.

[norwaypinesavage]

Your link is applying aero drag losses twice to the ICE vehicle, and not at all to the EV. In addition, its giving 85% efficiency to the EV powertrain and 60% to the ICE. It is also not including A/C, power steering, brake booster, blowers, lights, etc, in the EV while it is in the ICE. It is not including charging losses and self discharge in the batteries. This is like saying your apple is more efficient then my dog.

[rb22982]

I have yet to see any scientific or press source say ICE was as efficient as EV, period. If you have any links I’d love to see it. Until then I’ll believe the vast amount of information I’ve read that EV is far more efficient than ICE. Frankly even if they are simply the same effeciency (or slightly less), again I’d rather spend the money on US electric companies than send money to insane middle eastern and south american countries that hate us.

[rb22982]

I don’t know any refineries shutting down but there is a lack of demand. I know utilization is near the low 80s when it could be in the low 90s if the demand was there.