"and my confidence in karma makes [me] hope and fear both distractions rooted in focusing on the past or future."
All I did was mention that as a Christian I do not subscribe to the belief in karma. You could have just accepted my statement and moved on - but you chose to "correct" me. Incidentally, when I said I didn't believe in it, I wasn't insulting your belief, merely stating that I do not subscribe.
You are apparently very evangelical in your efforts to educate people on Buddhism (e.g. your "about page"), and likewise, I am evangelical in my beliefs. Thus, I do not like to see people make non-existent connections between Christianity and pagan ideologies.
The Christian belief in sowing what one reaps is vastly different from karma. Whether you believe in the Indian version of karma that I have read much about, or not, obviously only you know, and I will gladly admit on here that I know very little about Buddhism. I know some basic history, and some of the fundamental beliefs but I also know there are different forms of Buddhism and don't begin to pretend I understand the subtleties between them; but please, please do not try to equate any of this with Christian doctrine. Many people probably already believe this, and very erroneously so I might add. The term "karma" is tossed about frequently, even by so-called Christians.
Furthermore, you are the person who used terms such as, "that book is a bunch of crap" and so on and became extremely defensive. I never called you a liar; I only said that the things I have read did not did not agree with what you say you know. Of course, you are not about to let a "western" professor, or any textbook, or anything and everything I have read in the past 30 years on this topic get in the way. It obviously is all completely and totally in error, while you have the corner of the market on truth. At least I gave you some citations - you have given me nothing.
Regarding your statement:
"Buddhism comes from the east and is simply not understood by westerners",
All I can say is, "You understand it, right?" Shall I assume that you are not a westerner? Can a Buddhist understand Christianity, Judaism, or even Islam? You insist that karma is the same as the Christian belief of reaping and sowing. As a Buddhist, perhaps you just simply cannot understand Christian things.
As far as myself wanting to understand Buddhism, I only wish to understand it insofar as it helps me to better communicate the differences in my faith. It is not only important to know what Christianity teaches, but to know what others teach. The chasm between us is significant. Finally, I have great courage and conviction about Christianity, which is why I felt compelled to address the karma comment to begin with. I was not trying to, as you stated, "take [you] to task," so go ahead and post the whole conversation. I was trying to be polite and keep this off a McCain thread.
Buddhism and Our Ongoing Conversation
From Paved Paradise | 02/24/2008 3:24:28 PM MST repliedI’m talking this off the thread - it’s getting too deep for the topic of that thread.....
I find it interesting that you think the book is complete crap. I have read about karma in numerous books and it has always been directly linked with reincarnation. Incidentally, I noticed you never answered the ? I asked you about whether you personally subscribe to this belief.
Also, you said my quote sounded like a Psalm but I gave you the book it was from - it came from the “Brhadaranyaka Upanishad” which was the book written by the Upanishads.
As for your explanation about a baby having mental anguish from starving because it is his “desire for food [causing] the mental anguish.” Talk about LOL! The baby doesn’t even understand desire or food or anything on any intellectual level whatsoever. Do you even have the most basic understanding of human development at all? As for the point in time when pain stops during starvation that you mention - yeah, you’re right - when the person becomes comatose and body literally shuts down.... As for the mind stopping its focus. See, this is what drives me crazy about these kinds of religious beliefs. Would you as a Buddhist help a person suffering? Or would you simply just go on your merry old way and think that he would eventually reach a point of no longer experiencing such a selfish state as wanting (e.g. wanting water, food, or even air!) Even the Buddha started on his personal journey because he saw some poor peasant suffering miserably and because he was raised in such an indulgent manner, it bit at his conscience. That’s about the only good thing I can say about Gautama.
Furthermore, you talk about euphoria when a person drowns. I have heard of stories of people drowning and being rescued and it is sheer and utter horror and terror. Otherwise, if euphoria was there, water boarding would not be an issue, now would it?
And as for your comments about being “corect” as regards being “appropriate TO the path,” I submit to you the same basic line of questioning. WHAT path? Whose path? Who decided the path? This is such B.S. and I do not laugh about it because there are people lost in this kind of belief - lost and doomed to hell and I do not find that funny one little bit. Sorry about that my friend.
At least I can be authentic and say that my faith, Christianity, has God as the author of my belief system. When you ask ME who made the rules and whose path I follow, I have a very simple answer.
Finally, the quotes I gave you from the Upanishads and the info on the Vedas is all stuff from India that was out there well before Buddha.
The reason I said Buddhists were loving and peaceful is because I have never heard of them doing anything evil on a big scale, but then again, they don’t do much of anything do they? They sit in their little monasteries and meditate but I have never seen or heard of any major Buddhist missions where they went out and clothed people, fed people, and tended to them. I have never heard of anything! Nothing! Maybe you can enlighten me on this topic. In fact, I’m going to check it out for myself.
One last comment - I am not trying to “straighten out” your views by any comments made by a western professor. I am, however, trying to tell you that there are numerous scholarly works written about karma that seem to completely disagree with YOU. Also, I see you used the term “western” as if it’s some kind of flaw. Meanwhile, you have no idea who the professor is or who the authors of the textbook are, much less the numerous books the textbook cites, etc.
I may not know everything but I know that eastern thought is not superior to western thought.
Re: Buddhism and Our Ongoing Conversation
To Paved Paradise | 02/24/2008 3:32:10 PM MST sentI can understand why you didn’t want to post more of your nastiness and prejudice on the open forum.
Tell you what; I know what I know, you believe what you believe.
Re: Buddhism and Our Ongoing Conversation
From Paved Paradise | 02/25/2008 10:44:49 AM MST repliedI did not think what I posted was nasty nor was it appropriate to continue this line of topic on the thread - it had veered far off course.
I have no idea why you felt my comments were “nasty.” If you told me that Buddhists believed I wasn’t going to attain “nirvana” or your version of heaven, it would not bother me and I would not think it nasty of you to say. I might believe you are very wrong however and try to reason with you. I have an Uncle who is a Jehovah’s Witness. He thinks he’s doing his job when he “shares” and I respect that. If one truly believes his way is the right and good way, it is only natural to want to convict others of that belief as well.
The Bible says, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end, it leads to death.” What you “know” is very limited by your finite mind and you cannot “know” what you “know” anymore than I can - but that’s why it’s called faith.
I happen to think “your way” is leading to death. I am not going to make an apology for that; I didn’t make that up for my own sake and it’s a very hard truth. As St. Paul said that the fragrance of Christ is life to those who believe but it is the very stench of death to those who do not. I am afraid what you have gotten from me is the stench of death and for that I will make no apology.
Re: Buddhism and Our Ongoing Conversation
To Paved Paradise | 02/25/2008 11:49:13 AM MST sentYou took the conversation off track not me. With your first post you started insulting me. You also basically called me a liar. Repeatedly. If you think I like that you’re wrong.
I know what I know about Buddhism because I am a Buddhist and have practiced and studied it for ten years. However “limited” my knowledge of it is it is far greater than what some western professor or you know about it. It has nothing to do with the quality of “western” thought. Buddhism comes from the east and is simply not understood by westerners particularly those who aren’t Buddhists.
So far everything you have said about Buddhism and karma are completely wrong as far as any Buddhist is concerned. Take it or leave it. I don’t care what you think about it but I don’t care to be called a liar either. The fact that you don’t even see how nasty and arrogant that is tells me all I need to know about you. But that’s your problem. Keep it to yourself or go tell someone else they don’t know what their religion means.
This hasn’t been a conversation this has been your one-sided proselytizing using insults and accusations to tell me “you’re right and I’m wrong.” You are the one who wanted to take me to task over the word “karma.” I could give a flying rat’s ass what you “think” it means. It is obvious that you couldn’t care less what Buddhism teaches that it means so why should I bother?
If you want to continue to insult me then have the courage of your convictions and do it on the thread or I will post all of these FReep-mails on the thread for you.
There you have it. As you wished.